Hagen Heubach: 0:03

How we even make the value chain transparent around what are the emissions and, carbon, exchanges, what are going on there. And not only from a company to company perspective, it's really a, how to track down from a fully assembled car, all the way down to the raw material or on the other side, from a car, which goes into the field. So in the usage until the end of the life cycle

Tom Raftery: 0:24

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate 21 podcast, the number one podcast, showcasing best practices in climate emissions reductions, and I'm your host , Tom Raftery. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast in your podcast app of choice, to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the climate 21 podcast. My name is Tom Raftery and with me on the show today, I have my special guest Hagen. Hagan welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Hagen Heubach: 0:55

Hey, Tom. Great to have me on the show. Yeah. My name is Hagen Heubach. I'm the global vice president and head of the industry business unit automotive. Here at SAP. So basically my organization oversees all the automotive, specific developments, products, solutions, what we're doing along the entire value chain. And on the other side, uh, we are responsible for the entire strategy of, uh, automotive and the future of mobility. As an automotive fan, of course, always happy to join and always happy, uh, to interact because sustainability is one of our core topics.

Tom Raftery: 1:25

Yeah, it's, it's an interesting time to be in automotive and transportation more generally because it's being heavily disrupted right now. Isn't it?

Hagen Heubach: 1:35

Absolutely. No, absolutely. I mean, if, if you're playing like me for more than 15 years in automotive, and if you grew up in this industry, to be honest, we all agree. We never have seen a time where so much transformation and so much shake up of, you know, classical fundamentals is currently happening. And this is not only no towards new technologies, which are heavily pushing into the market. I mean, everybody is aware of what's happening with electro mobility and new drive trains with batteries, you know, on that side. But I'm also talking about the future setup of, you know, the cars, the true software and connected platform. I'm talking about this next level of autonomous driving, which is coming. And at the end, it's also a classical disruption around the whole business models. What we see, yeah. Everything from the classic OEMs and the n-tiers who are supplying from downstream to the value chain, but also then, you know, the whole disruption and change of dealerships and national sales companies to more direct digital sales and interactions with end customers.

Tom Raftery: 2:33

Okay. And I mean, apart from the fact that we are seeing massive disruption in this space, this is obviously the Climate 21 podcast, so we're more focused on reducing the emissions from transportation. How, how do you see that shaking out?

Hagen Heubach: 2:50

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sustainability is really in the heart or in the core of this industry or has landed there. There is not one company who is not fully committed to the sustainability goals and the agenda, you know, of the UN. And to be honest, the industry also cannot afford another era or another 50 years of not looking at sustainable processes, products, and everything what is related to, carbon free emissions of, doing. What is really important for the industry also saying of course it starts, first of all, all with transparency, how we even make the value chain transparent around what are the emissions and, carbon, exchanges, what are going on there. And not only from a company to company perspective, it's really a, how to track down from a fully assembled car, all the way down to the raw material or on the other side. From a car, which goes into the field. So in the usage until the end of the life cycle. This is something what we need to make sure that this transparency is getting now into the market. And on the other way, what we have, how do we better make use of processes to push down the emissions in also the materials and components what we use?

Tom Raftery: 3:59

Okay. And I mean, the shift to electro mobility that you mentioned initially, that's starting to happen now, finally, at some scale we're seeing, almost all of the big automotive companies embracing it, the Korean companies have jumped on board big time with Kia and Hyundai, the German companies as well, obviously Volkswagen, Mercedes Benz, BMW, BMW have been in there a long time, although they haven't gone as far now as Volkswagen in the last couple of years, I would say. Tesla, obviously they're a long time and all the others as well are, are starting to get on board. How, how do you see that playing out? Europe has decided, and California has decided recently to say that they won't allow the sales of internal combustion engine vehicles after 2035. That's not that long away is, is the industry prepared for that shift to electro electro mobility?

Hagen Heubach: 4:55

I mean, yes, you can always see from two ways of saying when, when is an industry or business fully prepared. I mean, at the end, it's always a leap of faith what you need to take. Look from a technology perspective, we are super confident. And as you named all the big OEMs and also the value chain and suppliers below, I think, you know, we, we are able in an industry to deliver a class products, which deliver, uh, a great user and consumer experience from an electro-mobility perspective. You know that as a long time, EV experienced consumer that at the beginning, of course, we had our challenges and it's not only about charging huh, it's about the end to end experience what we deliver. This is long gone. Huh? And if you look at the latest models from BMW, Volkswagen but also as you named it from Hyundai and Kia, for example, this is all stuff what we can say from the reach of pure, the reach of the battery. but also, I mean, the interaction with the end customers and the whole experience of, you know, charging and consuming electromobility this is far beyond now, I would say from the pure product, we are fully there and confident that we can roll it out. However, and there brings some, you know, some impacts also, if we are going not only from one or a few products in the market to really mass market productions, with millions of EVs into the market, there are some impacts, which definitely the industry needs to solve. And yes, time is short and we need to get our roller skates on. But if you think about a seamless functioning infrastructure with seamless invoicing and billing across all the networks and all the charging infrastructures, what we have, still something, what we definitely have to solve and to get better. Huh? Second. I mean, we are also always talking you currently in Europe, around okay energy management and our energy crisis and everything what is related to it? The errors of, you know, classical combustion engine and saying, Hey, we are filling up our tank full, loaded, and drive as next as we can. This era is also gone. It's about sustainable and efficient energy management that you always have the energy, what you need from get from a to B and manage it in a very efficient way. This is also related on how do we load the cars? How do we balance out? Where do we load? How do we interact maybe with other, you know, energy sources and so on and so forth. This is much, much what we can, you know, optimize and also get better. And if you lead this back now to our sustainability topic at the end, of course, this is all related to sustainability. Why? We need to manage our resources and our energy in a more efficient and a careful way because resources are not unlimited. So, uh, the raw materials, what we are using in batteries, and if you put all these factors together, a hundred percent, I would say, yes, we are there. We are getting there. There are things to sort out on the way, but if you don't take that leap now, I mean, you would never go for it. So yes, we need to go.

Tom Raftery: 7:43

Yeah. And of course. As we always see in times of disruption, we're starting to see new startups coming into the, the fray as well. Tesla mentioned earlier, not that new a startup, but still, I mean, it it's gone past startup stage, I would say by now, because they're, they're opening more plants and producing, you know, in the order of millions of cars per year. But then you've got other ones like Nio coming out of China. You've got Rivian in the US and there's a slew more out of China whose names I can never remember. So how do you see that playing out the startups versus the incumbents?

Hagen Heubach: 8:21

That's of course an interesting field because on the one hand side, you know, we have the heavy hitters and we have the big OEMs and car brands in the world who have think yeah, we, we have earned a right to play in this market and dominating the market since years and decades on this one. And as on the other side, as you said, we have the new startups which are coming in and of course sometimes come with revolutionary, you know, approaches and aspects, you named Nio. I mean the whole concept of battery swaps. Yeah. I mean, that's still something, what you sold out. Just leading back on our, one of our leaders at SAP, which also came up long time ago with

Tom Raftery: 8:58

Shai Agasy yeah. With Better Place.

Hagen Heubach: 9:00

You remember it? So concepts still not forgotten in that one? No, but on the other side, there are two things. What we see a), for the well-established player and, you know, the big, heavy hitters, there's clearly a selection process currently in execution where the underlying theme is focus, focus, focus. Huh. So, which means. The times where you can, you know, go on a complete product or model, dimension in all the areas and play at the same time. It's not gonna happen even in the further one, uh, areas anymore. I mean, we just saw that, for example, with Mercedes, with a breakup of Daimler Trucks and Mercedes passenger cars clearly focus on the high passenger segment in the EV space. No, for example, this is one thing definitely in there or take Stellantis as the counter proposal, they say, Hey, we never going to get the best ones who are manufactured the best EVs or the best autonomous drivings. Hey, but we are the best ones who are white label manufacturer all around the world for any brands. And we want to deliver the best manufacturing and car assembly, uh, experience what we have. So from a well-established brands, what we have in the market, they will go through this selection progress and going onto the focus. And then besides of, you know, the new startups, what we see with new brands like Polestar and so on and so forth, there is one aspect I would like to raise. This is clearly about new partnerships and also bringing new brands completely to the markets in a new approach. If you look for example, at the announcements lately in July, June, what happened, for example, also at the, worldwide developer conference of apple, they just recently announced that they're gonna relaunch and reshape the Apple CarPlay fundamentally into a complete relaunched. Yeah, OS operating system for the car, which is able to plug in and to interact and take over any backend system in every steering component of a car. So, which means, of course you have all your nice apps and everything, what you usually may have on your head up display, but all of a sudden you can take over the climate control. You can take over maybe the brake systems and whatever, whatever. Step by step. And if you combine that of saying, now you have a very strong operating system, potentially from a big software and platform provider combined with another announcement, what we are seeing more and more in the market that Foxconn, for example, you know, one of the most, well known providers of phones is going also as the white label manufacturer of EV cars into the market. Now and they say, Hey, they catched up rapidly in saying we gonna assemble, uh, white label EVs with a classical battery drivetrain on two or three platforms to the market with also a backend software. And you combine front end with a backend. What do you have a complete car? So this is gonna get a massive push to the well established guys. Where is that at the end? What do I need? I need the brand. I need an operating system on the front end and a back end and a hardware to it and put everything together. And then we are in the market. So this will be the challenge, what we see over the next years. And there will be massive disruption going on yes.

Tom Raftery: 12:09

Fascinating. Fascinating. And you alluded as well to autonomy. and, you know, we're seeing slowly, slowly, slowly, the, ADAS systems, the advanced driving systems. We're seeing them getting more intelligent going from levels one to two to, in some places, three, uh, and even, I think there's one or two fours out there from the likes of Mercedes. I think if I remember correctly, maybe not, maybe I'm misremembering, but how do you see that advancing and changing business models going down the, transportation as a service route?

Hagen Heubach: 12:39

Absolutely. So in interesting thing about autonomous driving is, is the following. We always thought, okay. Having one massive operating system, which handles actually, you know, all the in car environment and also the external environment of a car. This will be in some kind of a form of a super computer So everything you know is flowing together on one central platform and you have one control system which handles internal and external influences. So for internal influences of a car, there's no problem. And as I said, we are there with the current software platforms and of the ADAS, what you said, and also what, you know, for example, initiatives like Volkswagen with the Cariat now is starting in their software platform development. Really promising and no question that a platform can handle it like this. However, if you look to the external influencing factors, I mean, you would agree that this is still a way to go because cause everything, what goes around no, uh, driving car or driving vehicle on road is still, still massive. And there are two things, you know what we need to distinguish a), enclosed areas or areas where we can easily control the impact, which are coming from left and right. So let's say from, uh, transportation areas where you just have, trucks or AGVs going on from left to, right. This is very easily to add this to a central platform and said, okay, the external influences are coming on that one. If we are talking about really the open market and for example, passenger cars, we have X thousand millions of external influences yeah. Left and right. A central monolithic platform is just simply overloaded. There's a recent study is just released that these platforms cannot handle the internal and external traffic and sort out everything, you know, what's coming left and right. And there are some interesting, I would say technology developments currently going on, I was recently talking to an ex CEO of, Conti. And Volkswagen, Carl Thomas Neuman. He just recently made me aware of"Hey Hagen, there's new company, and we are just working on, um, new developments with a company called auto brains, which is exactly focusing on selective, um, realities and, what to realize from an environment. Works actually as our brain. So if you look at our brain, we also don't realize or consume everything. What is in our older world, only that what we are focusing on and it's exactly how we should actually set up an autonomous driving system. The outside world, everything will flows left, and right. We should just, you know, skip that. The ones who are relevant is the stop sign, which comes all of a sudden in front of us, or I don't know, the, the small children which comes running on the street and this is the technology, what we need to push forward. But if you look at it still, still in the child shoes, uh, so at the beginning, what we are doing there, so still a way to go.

Tom Raftery: 15:31

Okay. Okay. Interesting. I do see it though, changing business models eventually and, and ushering in the whole transportation as a service route, which to my mind, is a huge sustainability win because if. One car is running around, picking people up and bringing them where they wanted to go, rather than just sitting in a driveway for 90% of its lifetime. If it spends 90% of its lifetime moving people around, then there's far less cars required in general than far less need for minerals and metals and cetera, to actually manufacture that vehicle.

Hagen Heubach: 16:05

Yeah. absolutely. But I mean, as we said before, I mean, Tom, you and me, we were sitting here already, I think, five years ago. And. In the, in the heavy, you know, times of mobility and shared mobility, I think we, we both agree of, there was, you know, an impact coming with COVID where a lot went back now currently to individual mobility with we are really getting back and also recovering from that one. The thing is. As always for shared mobility, if it's attractive for everyone. And the end consumer has a seamless experience getting from a to b, you don't want to hassle around, you don't want to wait too long and so on, and you don't want to have, you know, um, a disruptive, you know, experience where something is going, uh, to break down. Then of course, for the big cities, this will be the, the trend for the future. Of course, also in combination with autonomous driving. Yeah. And, Yes, of course. If you combine it also now with, the amount of cars then, which will be reduced, uh, the amount of, of course, um, shared mobility, what will increase on the other side? There will be a significant impact on sustainability because the emissions are going down. Simply not everyone using, you know, cars like hell. No.

Tom Raftery: 17:13

Yeah, I see it as well. Uh, I don't see people stopping, uh, owning or having a car. Probably what will happen is. Families that have two or three cars might switch to being one or two cars, which in itself is a win as well. I think.

Hagen Heubach: 17:30

Yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. So this optimization of assets and optimization of not owning areas, rather sharing or subscribing, uh, vehicles and moving toward. You know, this shared mobility or mobility budgets, or all the concepts, what we have there, it's, it's a way forward now. And my perception also, people want it. We see that every, every day, also with our own employees here at SAP, during COVID, there's a lot of, you know, different perception about company cars versus, you know, mobility, budgets, or new mobility concepts. What we are providing, this is something what we see in, in our side, but also in the market.

Tom Raftery: 18:07

Yeah. Yeah. And the, the manufacturers themselves are starting to cooperate a little more on a technological level as well. Right? The, the whole Catena X project that we talked about earlier. For people who are unfamiliar with what Catena X is, which I would imagine be quite a lot of people listening to this podcast. Maybe you could. Give it a brief Catena X 1 0 1.

Hagen Heubach: 18:31

Absolutely. So the crash flow in five minutes, maybe. So I mean, everything, what we discussed now, you know, You know, this fundamental impact on the automotive industry and focus, focus, and getting more efficient and productive, along the automotive value chain is one of the core challenges what the entire industry is currently looking on. Huh? I mean, resilience of supply chain or value chains in general, this is something, of course it was triggered also now to COVID and the geopolitical impact and everything, what we have, but also think about it. The, the, the whole technology change and this new components, like the battery in the mix. This also disrupts massively, the value in supply chains. And are we efficient in automotive? No. Hell no. That's one of the things, what we clearly learned. There's still massive, you know, of, cost and saving potentials along this value chain. If you just simply think about the amounts and spendings, what automotive companies are, you know, spending yearly on warranty and quality costs. Well, only because we are not fast enough, rooting them to pull the value chain. It's only one example. Second, the whole topic of sustainability. Yes. This is actually the one what we said. So there is no perfect or better timing for an entire industry now to come together and said, if we want to turn together to a sustainable mobility mode or yeah. Dimension in automotive. Now it's the time to sit down and a) define the future processes around carbon emissions, transparency of, uh, CO2 footprint for a fully car, but also topics like circular economy and reuse usage of component and raw materials at the end of the life cycle. Now it's the time together, to define this together now. And then we said now, most of the things are really related to all of the companies from OEMs to first tier to small and medium size companies. But it's also related actually to software companies. Why? If you take us also in the mix yeah. This whole segments of IT/OTs, we are just building this next generation of IT solutions for the automotive industry. And it would be nuts if we're not doing it together. So what we decided as an entire industry is we are coming together as one global community. Automotive OEMs, first tier, n-tier, smaller middle size companies. It OT providers in every form, researchers, and we gonna shape an ecosystem, an ecosystem of data exchange, because most of the challenges are relating back of data exchange from OEMs to n-tiers and so on and so forth. And we're providing this data ecosystem on a win-win basis for everyone. Huh? So we gonna have a trusted, neutral, and interoperable ecosystem what we're building at Catena X. And second, if we're building this data ecosystem, Hey, of course, it's a great opportunity also to execute on the most pressing use cases like product carbon footprint in scope three, not scope one scope two in scope three. This is the Champion's league what we need to solve here or circle circular economy, dismantling and re usage of components at the end of the life cycle. So these two use cases and there are more, but I state them out because we are in sustainability here. These are the most important ones. What we are looking at Catena X.

Tom Raftery: 21:41

Fascinating and there's a couple of things I wanna ask. So let, let me go first with the, the idea of Catena X seems to me to be almost revolutionary. I are there parallels in other industries for the, the kind of idea that Catana X is?

Hagen Heubach: 22:03

As to my perception clear, no, even, you know, if I would have looked at the automotive industry five years ago and you would have told me, Hey, Hagan would, can, this is possible to do such a thing in, in automotive. I would say, you know, Hey, we are a proud industry with. Yeah, most important and you know, very dominant players who could have imagined that, all the big OEM's first tier software companies are coming together and working on eye level on this most pressing topics for an entire industry, not saying, okay, I'm I'm mistrusting one or the other, just having the greater goal in view and in scope and coming together. And the interesting thing, what we triggered, with Catena X. And all of the big OEMs are with us European and international with us supplier side. And also from a software perspective, we have all the big ones in there. We are getting more and more requests from different industries who are looking and trying one to replicate the concepts, or at least the ideas of Catena X into that area. So founding an ecosystem where you have this win-win situations for everyone and transfer it into the most pressing challenges of solving them into an industry. We get it from semiconductor industries. We have it from manufacturing. I got it recently for mill and mining, uh, for the industry chemicals is already behind it. So we clearly see this model, which is not very common, replicated or signs of replication in other industries.

Tom Raftery: 24:01

A left field question. Where does the name? Catena X come from?

Hagen Heubach: 24:06

That's a fun part one, because you know, at the beginning there was a small group of pioneers who, you know, thought through about all the visions and yeah, guidelines or guiding principles, what we said, Hey, we all agree on data sovereignty. We all work together on eye level and so on and so forth. And of course, I mean, there was always the question about, so what's the unifying, yeah mission or, let's say, word, which unifies us. Um, and at the end it was always the, the vision of building a truly data driven, data chain. So, because the chain is connecting everything. You know, one of our ministers recently made a nice speech around Catena X is saying, Hey, if you take, for example, a wire harness of a car, it consists of more than 2000 sub components. And if you want to assemble all the sub components together, you really feel that chain and the chain gets real and the chain it's getting tangible, but also you need to put it together through data through IT. So outgoing on that one was a really a nice, you know, contest what we have with in the first pioneers of saying, Hey, what could be a good word? And the old Greek word for chain is Catena. So there we go. And Catena the chain and the X, which connects then the chain, uh, into that one. This was the basic idea of saying that's where we going.

Tom Raftery: 25:22

Nice. Nice, nice. The two use cases you mentioned, uh, around sustainability. Uh, we haven't talked and yet about circular economy really and applying circular economy principles to the automotive industry. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because it's an important one as well for getting emissions down.

Hagen Heubach: 25:42

Absolutely. So, I mean, that's really one of the. Interesting cases where Catena is also getting really cool with respect to new business models and new processes. What we have, why? Because at the current stage classical combustion engine models and cars and vehicles at the end of the life cycle, yes, they're gonna go to recycling companies, but there's no really a standardized process to face them out at the end of the life time. Second it's always interesting. I got feedbacks from leading recycling companies they still say, look at the end only 7% of a vehicle at the end of the life cycle is really gonna be reused. Everything else we gonna scrap and just, you know, put somewhere in treasure and whatever this. And if you think that through. This is something also what we cannot let go for the next 50 years. I mean, all the different components of seldom and raw materials, copper nickel, iron, and on everything. What is assembled in the car it's super valuable and we cannot let it go for the future. We need to get this back into the cycle. Plastics. It's the same. There there's nothing around recycling of plastics of cars as of now. So, and here it comes. I mean, with Catena what we triggered with the use case of circular economy that we say, Hey, we establish new business processes and business models of at the end of a life time or life cycle of a car to, to structure dismantle cars and vehicles. And this can be even triggered by OEMs, which are currently planning to establish some so-called dismantling factories, where you have exactly the transparency of a car and the bill of material of a car, which material composition is left. So I can tell you exactly then at the end of the lifetime of a car, how much copper or how much nickle, how much, whatever we need in there. And I can dismantle it in a structured way and can give back either full components. And full components. I mean, of an EV is very clear. It's the battery. And at the end of life cycle, the battery still has a lot of energy and power left. So into their manufacturers, or I can even can give back raw materials to, you know, million mining companies who can refine them or whatever it is into iron nickel, couple into subsegment suppliers in a very structured way. And this is happening of okay, classical business processes and relationships, what we have or over so-called secondhand marketplaces. All of a sudden, I mean, there is a whole segment of raw materials for cars and materials, but we can change in exchange here. And Catena is really building the umbrella to, you know, exchange the data over it, but also provide the solutions from an IT perspective over marketplaces, dismantling processes and so on and so forth. No.

Tom Raftery: 28:23

Fascinating. Fascinating. Another slightly left field question is, the average life's life expectancy of a battery in an EV these days is measured now in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, which is great. Uh, they got a bad name initially with some of the very early, uh, models, which failed quite often. But now the standard batteries in, in EVs typically last for 300,000 kilometers, which is the European life expectancy of an average life expectancy of a vehicle anyway. But Tesla have revealed that their new 46 80 battery, for example, uh, they've had it lab tested and it has a life expectancy of about three and a half million kilometers, which changes the game completely. If it's true. I mean, we, we it's Tesla who, who did the, who paid for the testing? So, you know, it may or may not be true, but if we start getting to a stage where batteries last 10 times, the expected lifespan of the actual vehicle, do we kind of get to a real circular economy moment there where the manufacturers take the battery back, put a new body on it and slip it out again as a new vehicle?

Hagen Heubach: 29:35

Absolutely. I mean, for example, wouldn't that be nice. Wouldn't that be nice? I mean, Recently also saw that nice example of an old Mercedes E-Class assembled from 1,986 or something, which just passed, you know, somewhere, you know, in the third world as a taxi, the, the 600,000 kilometer, uh, area from a classical. And then, and then, you know what, they just changed the engine and it went on for another 600,000. So it's really, but if you think the two and put it in the other way around, I really like the approach of saying. Brands and models and new technologies outside. This will be upgraded and maybe needs to have re-brush. But if we truly can combine one of the core components of a vehicle, which is the drivetrain in the energy source is the drivetrain. At the end, in this area, then we are in the game. Then we are truly in the game of providing sustainable mobility. How in here, it doesn't matter. The first 10 years is running, maybe the whole vehicle as a passenger car. And the second one, it's maybe a logistics or transportation, uh, whatever, what we need. And last but least it's a micro mobility, which is gonna be transferred now, but the usage of the component and the battery, this will be the make or break for our industry. Yeah.

Tom Raftery: 30:45

Yeah. Yep, yep. Hagen. We're getting towards the end of the podcast. Now, is there any question that I have not asked that you wish I had, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Hagen Heubach: 30:58

I think probably, you know, leading back of the use case Catena, for CO2 footprint tracking, that's really important when maybe also where I lead the intention to our listeners here. Why? Because it's not only about, you know, the IT perspective providing now a solution for scope three carbon. Uh, emission tracking and transparent. It's also pretty much, we are working currently on a rule book in, Catena X regarding product carbon footprint of the entire automotive industry. You know why? Because basically from a business perspective, there are no rules for the automotive industry currently. How even do we want to measure CO2 footprint? Is it on plant level? Is it on average level or whatever? So there, there are dedicated work groups and we are releasing the information that the results continuously over Catena X our publishing channels. how do we want to deal and tackle this as an entire industry? It's so fascinating because that's a Greenfield, Tom. Everybody starts from zero there and the business processes, the rules are not set. If you're interested in this one, happy to share, or you know, the Catena X communities, but definitely something worth to look.

Tom Raftery: 32:04

Oh, fascinating. I is that, is that publicly accessible? Can anyone go in and check that out?

Hagen Heubach: 32:10

Yeah. So there will be several stages of releases. Of course. I mean, you know, we're working in Catena X with a very tight development consortia where. Hard core development and IT components are gonna be built. We work in an association where dedicated members have access, but we have also a public available area. And especially for debts area, this is public information, which we are going to release on continuously basis. Now there are several versions already available and more to come. Of course.

Tom Raftery: 32:37

Fantastic. Fantastic Hagen. If people want to know more about yourself or the automotive industry or Catena X or any of the things we talked about in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Hagen Heubach: 32:50

So personally, of course, about my social channels on LinkedIn, of course, there's always continuous releases of my, or our activities from the industry business unit. Of course, that's clear. SAP.com for industries for automotive. They are always the latest product storylines thought leadership assets from SAP and everything. What my fantastic organization is leading on, and last but not least CatenaX.org. This is the way to go. And the central lending page and then reaching out is always to me directly or to our group would be nice.

Tom Raftery: 33:22

Fantastic. Fantastic Hagan. That's been great. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Hagen Heubach: 33:27

Thanks, Tom. Always a pleasure.

Tom Raftery: 33:30

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about Climate 21, connect with me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you liked the show, please don't forget to subscribe to it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks catch you all next time.