Bhushan Nigale: 0:03

It's increasingly crystal clear that sustainability is really top of the CEO priority definitely, right? Because sustainability, as we know it drives business success. It absolutely builds up the brand loyalty. It meets the customer expectations, consumer expectations as well. It also drives efficiencies and profitability. So it's, it's really clear. It's not only good for the planet, it's also good for business. It makes strong business sense

Tom Raftery: 0:34

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast. The number one podcast, showcasing best practices in climate emission, reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice, to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi everyone. Welcome to the Climate Confident Podcast. My name is Tom Raftery and with me today on a special episode of the Climate Confident Podcast, in partnership with SAP, I have Bhushan. Bhushan, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Bhushan Nigale: 1:11

Thank you, Tom, for inviting me and may I say right away that it's an honor to be with you today. I lead SAP's Sustainability Development Program. It's a cross-functional role covering topics from product strategy, to delivery, to portfolio, and couple of other things. And I've been with SAP for over 20 years and going strong. That's about me.

Tom Raftery: 1:36

Okay. Fantastic. And you had some interesting announcements at your big Sapphire Now event in Orlando there last week, a couple of weeks ago now, by the time this episode goes live, do you wanna talk to us a little bit about that? I, I saw mention of the Green Ledger and a couple of other things, so maybe walk us into that first of all, starting with. What was the reasoning or what was the thinking behind the announcements, you know, where, what led to this?

Bhushan Nigale: 2:07

Wonderful. Tom also liked the way you framed the question because I can come to the core of the matter, right up and give the motivation of these announcements. It's increasingly crystal clear that sustainability is really top of, the CEO priority definitely, right? Because sustainability, as we know it drives business success. It absolutely builds up the brand loyalty. It meets the customer expectations, consumer expectations as well. It also drives efficiencies and profitability. So it's, it's really clear. It's not only good for the planet, it's also good for business. It makes strong business sense. So this is, this part is clear, and if you say safe space messaging over the years, we, by the way, SAP has a very strong track record as an exemplar itself, and we are bringing in lot of this expertise as, as exemplars into our products and also helping our large customers on their sustainability vision. Yeah. So this has been running for a while and this year marks a watershed in this whole transition. So the background has been essentially to help our customers and partners drive, business success. That's always been at the core of, SAP's value. Mm-hmm. And sustainability being such an important dimension. We take the next step here. Right. So this is, this is really the key point. Now, with this framing, the set of announcements, then make, more and more sense. So I'll just pick up a couple. great. Maybe the most prominent ones Tom. So most right up on the line is what we call the Green Ledger. And later on, I hope I could, we could also discuss about the benefits and the overall idea, but I just want to give you a, a quick summary. Green Ledger brings in this whole transactional carbon accounting, approach towards, the whole notion of, of emission management. So it basically says, how can we apply the massively successful blockbuster principles of, double entry bookkeeping also to emissions. Yeah so it has the potential to have the same impact what, double entry bookkeeping had on capitalism that the whole, approach or the whole impact, the Green Ledger can have on the climate action, right? So it is so big. And then with this frame, of course, we also announced significant announcements to SAP's product portfolio. So I just want to pick one, or two specifically. One is, uh, we added significant capabilities to product we call SAP Sustainability Footprint Management. And I'll elaborate on that quickly later. But also, we announced a new product called Sustainability Data Exchange, And I can add this to the frame as we discussed. So big Sapphire for us, lot of announcements. I hope it takes the needle ahead or it moves the needle ahead.

Tom Raftery: 5:13

Sure, sure, sure. And a lot of this that you're talking about there, the, the Green Ledger and the Footprint Calculator and the Data Exchange, it's all around from my reading around, it's all around, the calculation and reporting of carbon footprints and the exchange of carbon footprint in information between organizations. Right. So just for people listening, let's give it a bit of context there. Talk to me a little bit about the reasoning why companies might want to do this. I know some of it's related to customer demand, some of it's related to employee, uh, demand and, and employee retention. Some of it's related to share shareholder pressure and coming regulation. And I, I've probably answered the question for you, but Yeah. Give it to me from your perspective.

Bhushan Nigale: 6:03

Absolutely. So indeed, Tom, you, you already, we covered it it well. With the various interactions I have with SAP's customers and partners I see a clear progression starting from compliance, like you said, and the alphabet soup keeps, deepening and thickening. So CBAM, ESRS ,CSRD, EU taxonomy, just we are talking about Europe, right? And if you go to other, regions and countries it's, it's even bigger. So every it, it really starts with compliance. Customers want to really say, make me, help me getting the compliant to the upcoming ESRS regulation. And so it starts with compliance. But pretty soon customers realize that it's also about optimization. So the questions they ask is, how can I reduce my carbon emissions? So it's not only enough to report, but then the questions get specific about how do I reduce year on year 6% emissions in my plant in Mexico, for example? Right? So it gets pretty quickly to an optimization phase. And then there are enlightened customers who also go to a transformation phase where they're saying that they're asking us how can we embed sustainability more and more in our business models. So for example, the principles of circular economy into our business model, right? So this is, uh, the overall journey. And one piece, one red thread that holds all of these phases together is high quality ESG data. High quality ESG data and now coming to specifically answer your question on, on the exchange. I'll put it this way. We know that for a variety, a majority of industries, a majority of their emissions are scope three emissions. So our, the value chain emissions, and you can do a great job in really getting your Scope one and Scope two emissions under control. Absolutely. But what about up to 90, 95% of your emissions, which are coming from your suppliers or later on, that you will pass on to your consumers, right? Mm-hmm. So, SAP with, by the way, I'm glad that we work with, with, with organizations like World Business Council for Sustainable Development. So in conjunction with World Business Council and several members of, the Council, we have worked for quite a while on this pack framework, like a Pathfinder mission that lets members or participants in a supply chain to exchange footprint data. And perhaps it might help to illustrate, Tom with an example, if that's okay with you. Please. So, yeah, so let's, let's imagine that you are a large manufacturer of detergent and I'm your supplier. I produce this chemical X that is an important component to your, of your detergent. And you, like you rightly said in the question, you are getting questions from regulators, but also consumers. Yeah. Who would like to see on the, on their package, what is the carbon footprint of, the detergent? And you ask me, what is the footprint of this component or this, component X, which is an important ingredient of your, of your detergent. And in turn, I have my own suppliers, which make possible the building or the manufacturing of this, of this component X. How do we bring all of us together? So you, me and my suppliers, and of course the suppliers of the suppliers, right? Yeah. And each of us are adding emissions. And these emissions are coming over to you, right? So you, it's, it's in your strong benefit and it's in my benefit to exchange this footprint information. So in plain terms, SDX, so the Sustainability Data Exchange, SAP Sustainability Data Exchange, it makes this whole exchange of product footprint information possible. And this, once you get this information, Tom, then it's easy for you to take, and hopefully just have me as your main provider. You take this and you take couple of other ingredients, and then you get your carbon footprint, and then you can put this out on the package of your product, right? And then benefit consumer. So this is a background why it's important for SAP to help our customers to accurately be able to exchange product footprint information. If you cannot measure, you cannot manage. We know this.

Tom Raftery: 10:38

Okay, cool. And you mentioned that it's transactional carbon accounting. How does that differ from traditional methods of emissions calculations?

Bhushan Nigale: 10:47

Indeed. So this, I would, this is a good segue also to the whole Green Ledger, discussion. So I would fragment this into, into two versions, Tom. Right? So one is, is is really, like you said, the classical product footprint, emission calculation. There, it's really essential to work as much as possible on primary data on actuals. Most of, or today, the tendency is to work with averages and estimates. They don't get as far. They obviously if, if you are a pioneer and if you're doing better, why should you be penalized by using lower averages? So this, and it also does not help consumers at all to know that this is just a broad estimated picture. So the SAP Sustainability Footprint Management product that we also announced, at Sapphire this goes really behind this principle of ensuring that customers are able to calculate to a very high degree and confidence product footprints based on actual data. So like material movement. The data is coming from S4 now, for example. Or you took these materials and then you are transporting them from one facility to the other. You incur footprint there or your employees are, are traveling. The usual scope three categories, right? And then of course you have the energy flows in internet corporate emissions. So, over a period of time, this picture gets more and more and more accurate that you get accurate product, carbon footprint, emissions. Yeah, so this is really the classical approach. So there we are getting stronger as we integrate more and more products which source the actual data. Yeah. So this is, this is one. Now to your question on the transactional carbon accounting approach. This is, really a revolutionary step, if I may say so. Why? Because if, I mean in plain terms Tom, this is about treat carbon flows like cash flows. So like how you would literally say, so transactions in the physical world, they lead to journal entries. Yeah. So I bought material, or I rented space and so on. Right? So they lead into journal entries. Now, once you have them on your journal, you can evaluate them, right? You can allocate them. They show up on your balance sheet. They show up on your profit and loss treatment. As an executive or as a decision maker, you take these numbers and this, this hard bound figures. And you say, what's my risk exposure? Or what is the investment decision that I would do? I mean, it would be a foolhardy business that does this big or even minor investments without looking at the financial implications. Absolutely. Yeah. So. Our idea is on the transactional carbon accounting side, if we treat emissions like transactions, which basically means all the statements that I made, you could just replace transactions by emissions and then you have it, right? So repeat or to phrase it, emissions can literally lead into journal entries. Yeah, so, so called the Green Ledger entries. Yeah. So they delete there and then you can allocate emissions. Can allocate emissions. They show up on your profit and loss statement. So you don't take decisions that are only focused on the financial side of the house without caring for emissions and vice versa, right? So you need in the end of, uh, really common picture. So transactional carbon accounting helps you right now with this hybrid mode, because some of the, let's face it, not all of the data is, is, is available. So, uh, there will be a notion of, of some averages data or some estimates, but over a period of time, like with products like SFM, you get more and more accurate product data. You get corporate data, corporate emission data, and then you combine this in hybrid approach. And there you have your Green Ledger. Right? So this is the whole notion of what we call as transactional carbon accounting. No wonder we are excited about it because it lets companies to really marry and combine the financial side of the house and the emissions side of the house.

Tom Raftery: 15:13

Okay. And are we saying that it's more accurate than the traditional methods of carbon accounting?

Bhushan Nigale: 15:18

They are simply because it's, it's, it's about more and more data that you get. So if I may come back to this whole data exchange, uh, example Tom, right? Where, uh, without a data exchange mechanism in place, emission data exchange in place, you would be guessing, right? You would ask me in this example, what's my, or if you may ask me what's my, product, carbon emission, I give you an input. You have no way of verifying this, or there is no auditability. You take a number and then you go, right, and this is obviously not helping you, me, or our customers, right? So, that's why I think maybe to deliver the point slightly, Tom, it's, it's, it's really essential that all of these pieces all in place together, right. This transactional, carbon accounting, of course is, is one part, but enabling portions of it. Yeah. The whole notion of being able to calculate product, the footprint. Taking as many, footprint or scope three subcategories, uh, into, into consideration helping or enabling suppliers to exchange, uh, footprint information is, is, is the other. So all of these pieces fall together in place. And of course, you in the end, you need to be really cognizant of, really good data quality, ESG data quality. This is absolutely a must. And then you, you get the picture. Pixel by pixel, by pixel. In broad strokes. Sometimes in smaller strokes, but more broad than small, the, the canvas gets, gets full.

Tom Raftery: 16:56

Fantastic. Do you have any customer success stories you can speak to on this? I know it's a new product, so probably very early to be asking that question.

Bhushan Nigale: 17:05

Right. So I cannot take names and only go in, in broader terms, but let me pick, this, this whole notion of, or this whole example of, Uh, you being a detergent manufacturer, a consumer goods, company, and I being this chemical producer, there are real names behind this, right? These are some of the largest brands, in the world also, and it's just covering the packaging side of, of, or, sorry, the only emission side of the house. We also have other sustainability examples. So this is, this is, this is strong on that. We also, what I also like Tom about this approach is we also have middle level companies, right? It's, it's not only that large companies, need to act, it's everybody will need to act and frankly spoken, if I'm a middle level business, small and midsize business, that doesn't mean that I get a free pass, right? I'm, I'm, I'm your supplier. it's in both of our interests. Maybe it's also a differentiator for me, right? So imagine I have another competitor who is not able to fulfill your request on, providing footprint data. So it's already a differentiator for me who can provide this. Yeah, so there are these, these real names. And to complete on that, we also have this middle level company, a milk producer in Germany, also a smaller manufacturer of agriculture goods. All of these growing examples. In the US We also have really middle to high level size customers. So of course the big enterprises and the big companies that we are fortunate to work with, but also new names, on the horizon. Right. Because, and that really gladdens my heart because it shows how important this whole, journey and the whole mission is. Yeah. And more and more adherence, uh, are more and more companies follow here and this just gets better.

Tom Raftery: 19:05

Okay. Okay. And is this geared towards any one type of industry or does it go kind of across the board?

Bhushan Nigale: 19:13

Right. So this, so we do have an industry focus. So consumer goods is an example clearly. Mining for example, or discrete manufacturing, manufacturing bases, automotive. These are the usual suspects, but there is also an element which is broad, right? Which, for example, if I just take into, uh, something what is known in the trade as holistic steering and reporting. So there you need to report on how your company is storing across ESG, environmental, social, and governance and economic, aspects. And that is industry agnostic. So we have also a product called SAP Sustainability Control Tower that lets customers visibility into their ESG and economic performance. And this is industry agnostic. There we have also a variety of, of customers across industries who use, uh, the software or who use a product to get visibility inside their ESG and economic performance. And then there is also a reporting element by which then you could report only EU taxonomy, for example. And also coming is are this csr, C S R D E S R S regulations. So it's, it's both to answer your question, right? There's an industry flavor, but there's also this industry agnostic layer, which, frankly spoken is absolutely essential because at some core level, the problems are the same. Exchanging sustainability information. So I, we spoke a lot about emissions, about product carbon emissions, but similar comments also apply for water footprint or land and biodiversity. And we have plans to also go there first to solve this important, space of, of, of carbon emissions. But then we go also to other areas, right? So we, we do have, both the flavors Tom.

Tom Raftery: 21:04

Okay, good, good. And you talked about regulations there. Can you shed any light on legislative changes that are coming down the line, you know, here in Europe, over in the US or in other jurisdictions? There, there are regulations in place already, but there are more coming. Do you have any visibility on what's coming and how you're going to react to those?

Bhushan Nigale: 21:28

Absolutely. So it's, really a variety of, of regulations. It also shows that, policy makers treat this as with high priority and sometimes the pace of regulation from debate and legislative bodies to these getting passed and getting into action is astonishing, right? It's really astonishing how fast policy makers are removing into, into the space. Plastic taxes is, is a good example. Very fast. There was movement and now we already have active plastic taxes in the UK, Spain and a couple of other countries more to follow. Now, to return to your, to your question, I mean, we did an analysis, along with our partners. There are close to 600 primary regulations across the world. 600. And if you look at the regional regulations like, EPR, Extended Producer Responsibility scheme in Ontario, Canada or in Germany itself, there are two. So if you count all of this important regional regulations, also a number is close to 5,000, right? So it's an, it's a mindboggling number. And, it, it'll increase. It'll increase as, as, as policymakers get, get strong. There is also demand from the public as action needs to be done. Now to come to your question. These are compelling events, Tom. This also act as a catalyst for, enterprises to start, if not already so on their sustainability journey. I want to highlight the upcoming CSRD, regulation, and child of it is, is, is ESRS. So, The European Sustainability, Regulation and CSRD corporate sustainability, I, excuse me, I, I forget, uh, the full name. It's, it's, it's quite a mouthful, but the, the, your listeners definitely know, know about this, right? And also we expect, in certain period of time, the Securities and Exchange Commission sustainability requirements for, for top US companies. So what's coming from 2024 are companies above a certain cutoff in Europe are mandated to report, and the cutoff varies in terms of revenue or also number of employees. So these are, this, this really varies on this EU taxonomy, which you can interpret as a parent, umbrella item, so to say, for these regulations also, mandates even companies in the US who have a significant European presence and a European subsidiary to report under EU taxonomy. Right? So it's not that I am not in this geography centered, so I don't need to care. No, absolutely not. So, This is, this is really one aspect, right? So I would pick up from the overall ESG reporting, uh, level, I would pick up EU taxonomy, CSRD slash ESRS. So, but taxonomy by the way, uh, is a classification scheme, right, for for activities. So Tom, you can say in the older example of you being, uh, a detergent, goods manufacturer, you could say, these are my activities that are relevant for, uh, reporting. They have a footprint, or they, they have an impact. And these are activities that are not eligible for reporting, right? So it's an elaborate scheme for saying which of my activities have an impact, which activities and how I as a company, How, how am I ensuring that I'm not doing any significant harm where I'm doing a meaningful contribution, where I'm doing a substantial contribution? Right? So it's a very elaborate scheme, taxonomy which, which, which is one. And then to round off the answer, so this is on the e ESG side of the house, but also there are regulations around packaging. I mentioned, the plastic taxes. This is a good, example. And companies need to, for example, increase the share of, renewable packaging, renewable materials in their package. Yeah. So there's one full section. It's also called EPR. We have been in existence for years, now Extended Producer Responsibility. These are also being, enhanced with the plastic taxes. And then last, because we covered carbon emissions and we covered, overall, ESG and economic side. We covered, circular economy. Before you ask, there are also regulations on the social side of the house, right? So for example, prominent example is quite the mouthful Lieferkettensorgfalts­pflichtengesetz German regulation, which can be translated as, the Supplier Due Diligence act that holds companies accountable for unfair practices even of their suppliers, right? So it's not enough for me to say I don't employ any child labor and I don't have modern slavery in my shops, but it's also my suppliers and their suppliers, right? I'm accountable across a certain cutoffs. And this regulation is active already from this year, right? So you just, you see that it's a variety of, of regulations and frankly spoken, these are compelling events that, make companies assess how are they progressing on this whole, on this whole space. So a lot of action there.

Tom Raftery: 26:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reporting requirements for organizations will differ from geo to geo? Yes. Is that something that this solution will help companies report against?

Bhushan Nigale: 27:08

Yeah. Yep. That's a brilliant question, Tom, because. The obvious question is, can, how can any provider offer a solution that covers 600, let alone the 5,000 regulations? Right. So, SAP's approach has been to build really this open, extensible ESG economic data foundation. That's quite a mouthful. So in simple terms, we say what are the what's the common denominator across several of these regulations? Let's say there are a set of ESG themes, like emissions is a theme, water is a theme. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is a theme, right? So mm-hmm. There will, there will be like a common set of a theme set of ESG and economic themes. Financial contribution to society is another theme, right? So, There will be a set of themes and SAP's elevator is to build a strong ESG data foundation. Make it open. So make it open via api so customers and partners can use the foundation to get insights into their ESG and economic performance. And we make this extensible, which means that you say, okay, I want to extend this foundation. So to, a simple example would be, how do I, I want to also calculate carbon emission intensity, which is like required by regulations like TCFD, Task Force for Financial Disclosures, right? So then you could say, okay, I take emissions and I define intensity as emissions per number of employees, emissions per employee, or emissions by turnover, right? And then you could take elements of this data foundation, you could combine them, and then you would build what we call a sustainability metrics on top. And then you get an insight. Right. And then you would say, coming back to our old older example, you would say, look, though the net emissions look good, when we look at the carbon emission intensity, it's not good at all. Yeah. So because it's a factor of the turnover, then we are far higher than what we should be. And then you give a target. You give a target by saying every year, reduce this by 4%. And then obviously there will be, if you are a, even a middle sized organisation, you probably have several plants across, then you could also break this down per plant level. And you could say plant Z. You have, uh, the following, uh, target and plant w you have the following target, right? So this fine, granular aspect are really essential because one size does not fit all. You've got to customize. You got to be cognizant of the regional and local factors, like you said. So our solution, it's our intent to cover as many of these cases as possible.

Tom Raftery: 29:52

Okay, great. And just to clarify on that, does this mean that this solution will allow organizations to set individual targets, per organization, unit level, or per area, and then measure and report against those targets?

Bhushan Nigale: 30:08

You said it, you said it, Tom. So it really, so coming back to the, the, the older example, you could say, I have a plant in, in Mexico, which is at certain level I want to give, set a target to my plant in Mexico. This following target. Let's say I have a plant in Pune, India. I want to give it a particular target, and I have another plant near Munich, Germany. I want to give it a particular target, right? And then you report on this, and then you could also say, this particular plant is doing well, it's on target. Others not. So what do we do? Right. And of course, coming back to the, to, to the, to the opening remarks, that we had, you could also say, probably this plant is working right now with average data, but over a period of time I want to supplant it by actual data. Right. So it gets better than, and your, your, your calculations get, get more accurate. That's the flexibility that we want to give our customers.

Tom Raftery: 31:09

Fantastic, fantastic. And what are, what are next steps, Bhushan, this is where we are today, but where do you see this solution going in the next 3, 4, 5, 10 years?

Bhushan Nigale: 31:18

Wonderful. In fact, the Green Ledger is a vision Tom glad you asked, because it's not something that you deliver in two darts or in two sprints, right? This is a effort, multi lines of business effort along with our customers, partners. So it really takes a village, so to say. So we will, this will be, so we will have increments quarter by quarter, by, by, by, by quarter, right On this, so, I would say the first important milestone already achieved at Sapphire with the whole strong emphasis on Sustainability, Footprint Management, and Sustainability Data Exchange. Then we get some of the financial portions also running in, in the coming quarters and this story will continue. Right. And then, It's also essential to get broader and broader coverage also across other categories Tom. So it's not only product footprints and corporate footprints, but it's and plant, but it's also about water, land biodiversity. So these categories also need to come in. Right. So it's, it's a broad vision. We are at the second year of our, roadmap. Space has been good. Glad to work with several important customers. So this will evolve. Absolutely.

Tom Raftery: 32:43

Okay, superb. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Bhushan, is there any question that I haven't asked that you wish I had or any aspect of this we've not touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Bhushan Nigale: 32:56

Tom, you, you covered almost, everything really well. The only aspect was for social, but probably I, uh, preempted you with, with that. So I also want to alert, your, your listeners that it's, it's with lot of focus of sustainability has been on, rightly so on, on, on carbon emissions, because that's probably the most urgent excuse the pun burning question. Right. But it's also important to focus on the social side of the house, right? So modern slavery, child labor, but also how do we build a more equitable workplace where differences of opinions and of identities are also welcome, because diversity is, is, is a strength of an organization, really. Right? So the social aspects are, are also important. And of course, one initial baby step is to measure, so also to show the mirror and to say, currently the ratio of women managers is so and so, or the ratio of minority owned suppliers from whom we source is so and so. It starts really with the simple picture, but then more action is required. So this is also crucial that the social side of sustainability is, is, is also given due importance. So that was the only thing I wanted to add Tom.

Tom Raftery: 34:19

Lovely, lovely. Very good, very good. Thanks, Bhushan. If people would like to know more Bhushan about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Bhushan Nigale: 34:31

I'll send you a link, Tom, so that you could kindly add this to your show notes. I would recommend, your listeners to read this, this paper that we published along with the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. It's a three pager, three, three and a half, so, definitely a short read. So this is worth a read, right? So it also lays out in precise terms, the whole centrality of the data exchange problem and the need for it, and how companies need to get together to solve this. So that's one I would recommend and I'll send this to you.

Tom Raftery: 35:07

Okay, fantastic. Bhushan, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Bhushan Nigale: 35:12

Tom, it has been my absolute pleasure to speak with you and all the best to what you do. It's really important what you're doing, so best wishes to you.

Tom Raftery: 35:20

Thank you. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to Tom raftery@outlook.com. Or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please, don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks, catch you all next time.