Tom Raftery: 0:01

Hi everyone and welcome to the Climate Confident Podcast. My name is Tom Raftery and with me on the show today, I have my special guest, Kathy. Kathy, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 0:13

I'd love to. Thank you. My name is Kathy Baughman McLeod, and I am the director of the Adrienne Arsht Rockefeller Foundation Resilient Center. We call it Arsht Rock for Short, and I am in, based in Washington, DC.

Tom Raftery: 0:27

Thank you for giving me the abbreviation Arsht Rock, because that's a mouthful of a name.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 0:31

Yes, it really is.

Tom Raftery: 0:34

Tell me a little bit about the foundation. What is it, what do you guys do there?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 0:38

Well, we call ourselves a center. We're the Adrienne, the, we're the Arsht Rock Resilience Center, and this is part of that long name and the, sometimes the confusion that we are the Rockefeller Foundation, which has been good and sometimes bad because people think we give money, but we actually raise money. So we're a nonprofit. Okay. We are focused on protecting people and communities from the impacts of climate change, especially extreme heat. We work all over the world and are focused on people most at risk of climate impacts and for the most part, these are people who did the least to cause climate change.

Tom Raftery: 1:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And most people will be familiar with the Rockefeller name, but maybe not Adrienne Arsht so much. Can you give us a little bit of background on who Adrienne was?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 1:26

I would love to. It's who she is. She is our apologies founder and our inspiration. She's a business woman and an impact philanthropist. She lives here in Washington. She's has a passion for resilience, for human resilience and how people, withstand stresses and shocks and adversity and come out, okay. And. When you think about the impacts of climate change, so many ways that climate change is showing up for people, the need for resilience is immense. And so, she is our founder and, the Rockefeller Foundation, both our funding, our, our center.

Tom Raftery: 2:09

Interesting. And I gotta think it's an unusual tack to take because most of the organizations that I've come across in the climate field are dealing with reducing emissions, or in some cases, offsets. But I think this is the first time I've come across an organization that are dealing with resilience solely and specifically. Why? Why, why that focus?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 2:36

Well, This is very tough that we have to now admit that we have not met our climate goals. We are nowhere near where we wanna be. We made a commitment to keep our emissions and, and global average temperature rise to no more than 1.5 degrees centigrade above 1990 levels of emissions. We are failing, we're failing epically, and it's just getting hotter. And heat is driving storms, you know, bigger, wetter hurricanes and cyclones heat waves that are killing people and heat is killing more people than any other of the hazards. Flooding, landslides. Wildfire. We are with our eyes open, continuing to burn fossil fuels and roast our planet, and more importantly, the people on it. And so we're hurting our economies, we're hurting our families, and we're hurting the people who did next to nothing to cause climate change. And so the impacts are growing in cost and in the human toll. And we have to focus on this. This just have to be realistic and part of the hesitancy of a lot of organizations that are focused on the mitigation side. So this is the adaptation side, but the mitigation side being stop emissions or store emissions in, in all different ways is that we don't wanna say that we've given up. We don't wanna say that we can't do it. And. We have to be honest with ourselves and say we are creating these harms to people and communities and we have to do something that helps us survive and thrive in the face of all of these disasters. Okay, great. And

Tom Raftery: 4:26

what are you doing?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 4:28

We are We're, we have a global footprint. We have a bent towards cities. That's where so many people, I think that number is 67% of the world will live in cities by 2050. Now, I think it's like 62%. Climate change is impacting the success of, of farms and rural areas, and people are Surging in cities as they leave farms that are failing and looking for economic opportunities. We are creating governance and leadership for extreme heat where it didn't have it before. So extreme heat doesn't have anybody in charge of it. You know, we have agencies that are in charge of flood and agencies that are in charge of fire. We don't have across the. The world at any level. People responsible for heat, it's invisible and silent and yet so brutal in its effects on people and infrastructure and livelihoods. And so we've appointed chief heat officers. We have our first. Is in Miami. She was appointed two years ago, Jane Gilbert, and just recently we appointed Bushra a Chief Heat Officer of DACA in Bangladesh. She's the ninth, and so we have one on every continent, but Antarctica. And the idea is that they are emblematic of heat leadership and they work closely with elected officials to. Form heat health task forces and heat action plans that help you identify where are the people most at risk, which communities and those communities, which interventions will be most useful for them, and then plan to. Implement those solutions and figure out how to pay for them. And so there's a you know, policy aspect to this work. We also created the heat action platform, which is a one stop for every resource you need in several languages to address heat with interventions and a policy toolkit. Technical assistance is available, they're modules with videos to help you see how you can take on heat in your own community. We've also helped to move the policy forward on protecting people from heat by understanding the economic effects of heat. Mm-hmm. In labor productivity alone in the US it's $100 billion lost in 2020, and that's grown, you know, in three years lost to workers and to the community and the economy they're working in. So, That means that money not in the bank for a worker. And of course, heat does not land equally on people. And so there are disproportionate impacts on poor communities, on women, on the elderly. And so it takes an extra toll on on those communities. And so you wanted to orient your solutions toward those people and those communities. And then, We've named heat waves and we've categorized heat waves. If, if heat is the silent killer, how can you solve something that you can't hear or see? And so it needs a visual brand. It needs a brand that you recognize. And we believe and now have early evidence from our evaluation of naming Heatwave Zoe in Seville last summer that heatwaves with names help people pay attention. And they are more likely to act on the government's advice about how to protect yourself. They, they call their friends and family and say, Hey, it's really hot, it's dangerous. Anything from let's skip the play dates with the kids outside. Let's skip soccer between noon and four. You know, all these really practical things and we've gotta create that awareness. And so we are with partners around the world naming heat waves and categorizing heat waves based on the expected impact to health. And so that's another piece. How will this heat wave and the conditions. And nighttime temperatures are so important because we have to rest and clean our brains. And when it's hot at night, people are not able to rest and clean their brains and they make mistakes When they wake up, they go to work. Your hand eye coordination is off. You are a little bit slow. This could be for white collar workers and especially workers outside. And back to that economic impact 18% of that loss of a hundred billion in the US is disproportionately born by black and Hispanic workers in the South. So we also looked at, at 12 cities around the world to understand the impacts in all different contexts in in Bangkok and in DACA and in Delhi. So let me take, I'll take a breath. I know that was a long, long

Tom Raftery: 9:13

answer. Sure, sure, sure. Let, let's start with You said earlier, if I remember correctly, you said that heat is the, the form of climate change that kills more people than all others. How, how, how is it so dangerous for

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 9:33

people? Well, first of all, people aren't aware of it and it creeps up on you very slowly. And so it's also killing people who society. It doesn't care about, which is very tough to say, but also true. And so, when heat comes to you, you're not, I immediately recognizing it as heat illness. And it slowly it slowly grabs you and so you feel sweaty or clammy. You have muscle cramps, your organs begin to shut down. And this is all happening oftentimes when people don't understand what's happening. So when people go to the hospital or you know, to the emergency room, there's not a box to check. It's not trained right now to say, is this a heat related illness or injury? And so there's lots unknown about it. So it's, and, and then. Also we have this idea of these big dramatic effects of climate change like hurricanes and floods. You know, the tree, the palm tree blowing sideways, and the weather caster, you know, blowing, you know, his hair and the raincoat and all of that. And then you have floods, cars sweeping down the street, farm animals. It's dramatic and scary. Fires are big and telegenic heat, one aerial photo of of a city. Plagued by heat and I'll use British Columbia as an example because two summers ago 1200 people died between the Pacific Northwest of the US and in British Columbia and Canada in like a two day period. And that is invisible. If you looked with an aerial photograph from one day and two days later, it looks just the same. And so there's the lack of awareness. There's the way that it slowly creeps up on you. It's the fact that it's grabbing people who are on the edges of society. The elderly living alone in apartments that aren't air conditioned. People in low income neighborhoods or deaths that look like something else. Heart attack or renal failure, and actually it's heat driving it.

Tom Raftery: 12:52

Okay. Has a bit of a branding issue too, doesn't it? Because if you do see the headlines around a heat wave, The photographs at accompany, to your point, are typically kids playing under sprinklers in the street, or tourists on beach beaches under umbrellas, you know, which almost makes it seem like a good thing. No, I mean, h how do we fix that?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 13:16

Well, we are working on what the visual identity of heat is and we're working with photographers and creating different images of people sweating and looking sick and people wiping sweat from their faces and people carrying umbrellas standing on black asphalt. And so bringing more images that evoke a physical A visceral response to the image. And so we're, we're working hard to create a different brand with of course you know, heat, health guidance and public awareness, but also just we've gotta stop making it look like it's a great thing.

Tom Raftery: 13:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what about things like I mean, you re you reference cities because obviously in cities you've got this heat island effect. How are, I mean, and you've, you've talked about as well the fact that you are rolling out Chief Heat officers in some cities and hopefully more in cities. Mm-hmm. Well, I guess there's two questions then. My, my brain is going in 15 different directions at once. Apologies, but so, The appointee of the Chief Chief Heat officers, how does that work? Is it that you get together with a city and say, you need to have someone appointed to this role, we suggest this person, or how does that all work? And then as part of their role working with cities, you mentioned they come up with plans, but what about things like rolling out more shade trees? Because I know in streets that there are no trees versus streets where there are trees. You can have more than a 10 degrees centigrade. Heat difference? Is that, is that part of the, the plans as well? Or how, how does it all

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 14:56

work? Absolutely. So, you know, we're looking for mayors who have climate leadership in their cvs already. We're looking for people who are leaning in on climate action and so Exactly. We don't wanna start from scratch and do all that education we're, it's so urgent. We are just out of time and so Sure. I'm sure you saw that the World Meteorological Organization put out two days ago that with La Nina effect. Fading away and El Nino coming in, we expect hotter and than we would normally expect. So we have climate change. Hmm. We have the city urban heated island effect and we have El Nino. And so the W m O just put out a, a paper saying this is gonna be for the next five years hotter than we even. Expected, and that means deadly heat waves on top of deadly heat waves. And so, we look for people who are already leaning in on climate. That's the first thing. The second is we talk with those mayors and say, this is a new area of. Climate action and it's necessary because it's a health issue and an equity issue and a nature-based solutions opportunity. And so, there's something for everyone in the agenda of addressing extreme heat, and it's a positive agenda because no one has to die from extreme heat. If everybody was informed and had access to cooler spaces and knew what to do, we wouldn't have. Mortality and that would be incredible. This is a vision that can be achieved with education and interventions and infrastructure. And so it, it's a positive agenda around climate change when there are so many that are not. And so we find that climate leading mayor, we ask that they help identify. With us, someone who would be right to lead this agenda. We started out and the first two, the mayors identified were female, and we decided that as we understand that heat disproportionately affects women and girls, that we would bring a disproportionate leadership to address the issue. And so all of the chief heat officers are female. And so we then turn to what are the interventions that are gonna help this city? And we do have one at the UN habitat. So one at the global level, working with 92 countries who are members of UN habitat in all of their cities to try to accelerate implementing these solutions, which you started to list, nature is one of the most cost effective, more trees, more green space, more water use. Water, and. Really interesting ways and in places you can have pop-up sprinklers that are fire hoses, that have holes in them, and you can roll them up when the heat wave is gone. Thinking about the way that we use materials, cool roofs, green roofs, cooler surfaces. Mm-hmm. Urban forests, little mini forests that create Cooling pockets in dense cities and the materials that we're building the buildings with the metal and the steel, they're absorbing heat and then emanating it at night, thus making the city hotter. And that is the urban heat island effect. And so, we have the way the cities are built and you can retrofit those cities with these interventions, but there's also public information. Do people understand when the heat waves are coming? And that's where the heat. Health-based warning system comes from that. We've launched and tested for the last two years that predicts. The health effects of a certain type of heat wave or certain conditions of a heat wave, not just the temperature because we're so locked on the daytime temperature. Mm-hmm. It's not really the most, the biggest indicator. It's the few days before the nighttime temperatures. It's also the humidity. It's also the cloud cover. And so we've put those with our chief Heat science advisor and our science. Panel into an advisory that is an algorithm that takes all this data in and predicts the effects on the health of a community. And so, even if you see that it's really hot, I know you live in Spain, it gets really hot, but, but if it's not been hot the three nights before and there's not a buildup. On your body of those nighttime temperatures and you couldn't cool yourself, you're not as at risk even though the temperature feels really high. And so there's a lot of education to be done. The early warning systems policies that change what people wear and when they work, that's happening already. There are places, there's a law in Qatar that says you can't work during certain periods of the year at all, not just hours of the day. Those laws are proliferating. So, lots of things that can be done that have evidence-based behind them. We're also working to, to create finance for cities and other jurisdictions to be able to invest in things that Cool. And we launched a portfolio of projects called the Cool Capital Stack that takes looks at the full continuum of capital from philanthropy to commercial capital with insurance, all looking at what are the best mechanisms that we can use to finance projects and technologies that cool us and inform us.

Tom Raftery: 20:12

Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I saw, as you mentioned, I am based here in Spain in Seville as it happens. And I did see recently that a new law has been enacted here in Spain about people working outdoors during the hottest times of the year saying they shouldn't, no outdoor work between, I forget the hours, but probably like three to seven or something like that, because. It, it's kind of weird. You have that refrain about mad dogs and English men and the midday sun. It's not actually midday is, that's the hottest time of the day here in Spain. Especially here in Seville. The hottest time of the day is five to 6:00 PM typically when it's really hot weather. So that, that's really when you want to

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 20:46

a voice, the develop up of the heat of the day in the city. Yeah. And then it, it begins to emanate off of the materials in the city and the asphalt. Yeah. Yeah, that, that makes sense.

Tom Raftery: 20:56

And, and you mentioned the, the naming of the heat waves. How do you, I mean, you've listed some of the things there. H how do you define what is a heat wave and then when it gets named, and you said it was sevil, so is it just sevil and are there plans to take it beyond that? If, if, if it is,

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 21:15

yes. So, the. Definition of the heat wave comes in this algorithm I just mentioned. And so we use this categorization system, it at a certain level of expected all cause mortality increase. So I mean, this is tough stuff. This is dead people. This means that we expect an increase of X percent of mortality in this place. And a category one would be an increase of 10% and then you would say a category. Two would be 20%. And then anything above 30% expectation is a category three. So you have that system and then you attach the naming to that that ranking system. So anything above, and this is up for communities to decide, you know, we work, you know, each community can be different and so what's the right level. We also work with the MET agencies. So, we want this system to nest within existing systems that the meteorological organizations and agencies of these countries and communities are, are already using. And so when we get to a category two we believe that's when a name is appropriate. It may be that as it gets hotter, it doesn't matter that if you have an increased. Expectation of death, then just give it a name because the name means more mortality. And so why, why would we have that? So why don't we just have, and you know what, Tom, let's, I'm gonna edit that out. I wanna, this is really important content. Okay. I'm gonna start fresh on that answer on that piece. Okay. Okay. So we're basing, let me just give more pause for editing. We're basing the heat wave naming on our. Heat wave categorization system. And so that system is, has three categories and each category increases of the expected percentage of expected all cause mortality. And so as it increases your expectation, given the algorithm that says nighttime temperatures cloud cover, daytime temperatures, humidity, The name is attached to that categorization system. And so when it has reached that it needs a level one or a level two or level three, the heat wave gets a name, and the names are designed by the region or by the community to be appropriate for the community and recognizable to the culture. But not too common so that everybody's name is the same. So, you know, sometimes we have Hurricane Maria. And there are lots of Marias in the world. You know, the the group that put together the recommended names, which is a combination of science and social we did some Focus groups to get a sense of the civil community and their perspectives on heatwave naming along with the university partners and the AE Met and the city. And so it's a, it was a group putting together the names and came to, these are the names that we think are recognizable. So you want me, you know, I want them to be memorable, but you want to be able to. Say them and you want to know that they're Spanish. And so this new set of names is where, where our partnership team landed. Okay. Is that clear enough? Do you want me to boil that down somewhere?

Tom Raftery: 25:13

No, no, no. That, that, that, that's fine. That's fine. Okay. And okay, maybe we can edit a little bit. Thank you for the pause. It's not your first rodeo, obviously. So ob, obviously my suggestion on the naming of the heat waves is that they would be named after the fossil fuel companies that cause them and the politicians that haven't done enough and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 25:37

We'll put that into the focus groups.

Tom Raftery: 25:42

You mentioned on the intro call as well something about insurance and how you're getting involved with getting insurance to help people out. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 25:50

Love to. So, I mentioned that we look at early warning systems and awareness raising and policy. We also need to think about the risks and financing opportunities of addressing heat. And we know that the use of insurance can be a financial tool to bring. Money to people or to governments or to organizations for financing repairs from damage that's done by climate impacts. Mm-hmm. Or to reduce future risks of that impact. And so we have launched a Microinsurance Extreme Heat for income supplement for women. In India, 21,000 women are currently in this pilot to their work in the informal sector. They're some of the poorest of the poor. These are women in seven trades. They are waste recyclers, head loaders ship breakers, construction workers, market workers, home-based a lot of needle work. Farmers. I'm forgetting, maybe there's one, I think. But the point is that the self-employed Women's Association is a 50 year old union for self-employed women. And it supports the members with this, well, they all have They're build a discipline of savings. It's about their financial independence and their ability to make their own decisions. And those are so often linked to your economic independence. And so these women have bank accounts, access to credit, access to education access to Healthcare for their children and for themselves and for childcare. And so it is a system pulling these women out of poverty. And the thing that's knocking these women back is climate. And so heat and flood is pushing them back down into poverty. And they have done nothing to contribute to climate change. And so this microinsurance combined with physical things that help them reduce their. Their risks and exposure to heat like gloves. And, and let me say first how heat is affecting them. You know, climate change is literally in their hands. They have blisters on their hands from using tools that aren't made for the temperatures. They are using them in. They have a rash 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Every single day of the year used to be for a few months. Now it's, it's 12 months outta the year. They're miscarrying their babies. They have headaches. Heat is roasting these women and this insurance is meant to provide income to them so they don't have to be exposed to these conditions when they, the conditions are at the worst. And so we formed a partnership with Sava, the Self-Employed Women's Association and Blue Marble Insurance. They are a microinsurance partner and with our stra with us, and we have combined the microinsurance that pays to their bank accounts when the conditions are too hot for their, you know, too deadly for their health. We have provided of, and of course women, these women know what they need better than anybody else. So what are the things that would help you? A cool box to keep my water from boiling. And the carcinogens and plastic, when it's too hot, are coming into the water and making them sick. They need to keep the water at a drinkable. Temperature. The products they're selling are exploding in the sun. The fruits and vegetables are spoiling within hours and so cool boxes, gloves, tarps to cover their crops. Cement water tanks. We are providing physical things that help them protect themselves from heat to work less or work to work in a more informed way. And then third, they don't have access to early warning systems, so they don't have easy access to, A heat wave is coming in four days and it's going to be it's going to be deadly to your health and to your family. And so you need to do these things. We are going to institute that into the WhatsApp chat, which is the way the grassroots leaders communicate with the members. And so, It's not just insurance. It's part of a, of a, of a box of of interventions that we believe will help protect their health, which protects their income, which means they can continue their journey out of poverty. Fantastic.

Tom Raftery: 30:28

I'm gonna pause now a sec because I've just thought of a question that I should have asked two minutes ago. Sure. So I'm gonna ask that question and copy and paste it back when I do the editing.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 30:36

Okay. Okay, great.

Tom Raftery: 30:38

And it's about, it's about the, the naming of the heat waves, cuz I just wanna find out if that's gonna go beyond just Sevil.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 30:46

Oh, I didn't answer that, did I? Okay, I will do that. I will do that. Okay. So, and let me ask the question. Yep. Okay.

Tom Raftery: 30:55

And, and coming back to the, well no cuz I'm not coming back. And on the heat waves. Kathy, is it going to go beyond Sevil or is it just going to be a Sevil idea, a Sevil project? Because obviously yes, it gets quite hot here and we do have heat waves, but as you have alluded to it, it's not just a sevil based problem.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 31:18

Yes. And the idea is to test it. And to understand how did it work and did people respond and does it work to give the identity and the branding that we need to heat and heat waves. And so we've just finished our evaluation of the heat wave naming program and. And the categorization that goes with it and have found it to be quite successful. And we are excited that manuscript will be in the public realm very soon, and we'll be able to share that evidence that, that it works. We have some exciting locations teed up to test in in even bigger city or two very recognizable cities. And so stay tuned for those announcements, but. Absolutely. Yes. We believe that where heat is hurting people and they're not aware that heat wave naming with the health-based categorization is one of the best things that we can do and everyone should do it. And we're working closely with the Met office and W m O partners to share what we're learning and to merge the the methodologies that we are using with the existing and evolving heat health warning systems that all of the met agencies are using to everybody's aware and, and working hard to get these messages out. Fantastic.

Tom Raftery: 32:37

Fantastic.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 32:38

That got a little bit garbled, but is that, is that okay? You think you can make that okay? No, that's fine. That's fine. Okay. I said some kind of, you know, when you think you're gonna say something strong at the end and then it sort of peters out like, and messages.

Tom Raftery: 32:54

Not to worry. Not to worry. Okay. Good. Okay. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Kathy, is there any question that I didn't ask you that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 33:15

I think it's important for people to think about the economic path. Okay. I think it's important for people to think about the economic effects. I need a glass of

Tom Raftery: 33:30

water. That's fine. That's what the editing tool is for.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 33:36

And I didn't have lunch, which is also it. Silly. Ooh. And I also have some weird hair going here. What is that? I see that. Okay. I think that people should, I think that people should better understand the economic impacts of extreme heat. We are losing money that we can't see. We're losing it in our own productivity, especially for people who get paid on volume or get paid by the day or get paid by the hour. We are Our infrastructure is being affected by heat in roads that buckle and metro systems that get shut down. Schools have to close, restaurants close because it's too hot and the cooks are passing out are delivery folks like the, you know, delivering to your door. All the time. Those people are incredibly exposed. And so all of that is costing us money. And it's in our health, it's also in our wallets. Mm-hmm. And there are things we can do about it. And so I think being aware of it's not just a, do you want me to record over that? You okay? Okay. It's fine. It's fine. Everybody knows what that is. Okay. It's not just that heat. Is hurting an elderly person you don't know, living someplace else. Heat is now, it's so hot. And especially with the El Nino effect coming in, all of us are at risk and we have to get educated. And I think a self heat risk assessment is is something everyone should have at the top of their list as the summer comes on full bore. I mean summer, even in April has shown some Deadly temperatures in lots of places in the world. And so getting accustomed to the heat, but also getting our own adaptations personally for our family and for your friends and the way that you live. It's time to start thinking about that. And they're gonna be, new products that we're using will have personal devices that tell us what the conditions are and if it's safe, you know, every school yard, every little league field, every work site is gonna have to have something that. Is calibrated to that specific place, we're gonna have to change to green roofs and cool roofs and lighter surfaces. And so we sh need to start thinking about that. And as soon as we can transition away from fossil fuels we need to do it. And so we need political. Pressure from voters in all jurisdictions, all over the world. Mm-hmm. To say we have to have these climate action plans because the idea of growth of economic growth can be tossed out the window. When all of these climate impacts heat at the top of the heap is pulling down our growth. It's pulling down the advancement of humanity and our our standards of living. The foods that we're eating are disappearing. And it doesn't have to be this bummer story, but people need to know that they can take action now and we've got to turn the corner and get on. M people need to know they can take action, they can make a difference and we can tackle this, but we've gotta do it now. Yeah,

Tom Raftery: 36:54

yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the song I've been singing for a long time, the fact that we, this kind of systemic change that we need to have is so large that the most important thing you can do is prioritize climate in your vote. And, you know, vote only 100 candidates. Vote on candidates who make climate their priority. It's, it's, anyway, a

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 37:15

hundred percent agree with you. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Tom Raftery: 37:18

The thing about the economy is crazy as well, because you can prioritize climate and economy at the same time because you're just redirecting where you're investing. If you're investing in climate positive solutions, that's also investing in your economy and it's a better long-term investment. So, you know, just yes. This whole idea that is a dichotomy is crazy.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 37:39

It is. I would say our financial system is broken and that the externalities that are not priced into the ability for us to do so much that's. Providing return of, you know, between 15 and 20% sometimes for certain types of projects. It's a false sense of, of economic prosperity. We are hurting people and the planet and that is one of the biggest things that has to change, is the financial system has to price in the cost of doing the damage that we're doing. Tom, could I say one more thing that could be edited, that could be spliced in, because I think it's, it would add a little bit of rigor to the, to the data. Yeah. It would just go in this section we were talking about cities and the cost, the economic costs. Sure. Another example of the way that heat is costing workers is in New Delhi, 25% of every. Worker who works outside in new Deli is, wait, wait. 25% of the income of every worker who is outside in new deli evaporates every year. So a quarter of what they make is gone due to heat and you can't see it and it's not written down anywhere. And so, in Bangkok, it's 8% of the G D P of Bangkok lost to. The fact that people are in the motorbike economy. And so people on motorbikes who sit on the, on those asphalt they themselves are affected and then their productivity is affected and their clients are affected. And so it has massive direct and indirect effects. Wow.

Tom Raftery: 39:22

Wow, wow. Yeah. If people have read Kim Stanley Robinson's book, the Ministry of the Future, the first chapter of that details here. There you go. Yeah. Details in some detail. The effects of a heat wave. Just even if you just read the first chapter of that book, it would really open your eyes into what a heat wave could be, because it's, it's, I mean, I've, I've. I've been through a few of them here in Spain, and I happen to be in a place where it's not that hard. I'm not working outdoors. I have air conditioning. So for me it's reasonably easy. But for people, the kind of people you're talking about who live in an apartment with no air Con in the middle of the city, I mean, I can't imagine. I really can't imagine. It

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 40:14

must be horrific. Well, and those people that are coming in from the rural areas into cities, they're ending up in informal settlements with corrugate, corrugated zinc metal roofs. And those roofs are conveying heat, like a convection oven. And so the homes that people are living in, they're just roasting. And so there are, again, lots of things we can do, but you're so right. Yeah. We're, we're in a new era and The evidence says that we can, we can win, but we have to fight.

Tom Raftery: 40:45

Okay, Kathy, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the topics we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 40:54

I would send them to www.onebillionresilient.org, and that's o n e resilient.org. I'm sorry, o n e billion. So, People should go to www.onebillionresilient.org. The number one is spelled out, so o n e billion resilient.org. And I am on Twitter at k a b McLeod, f l a and would love to have People follow the Twitter and to engage there. And then my ATRA at ATRA is also, we have a, a Twitter account and a LinkedIn, and we are committed to transparency. We are putting out all that we're doing for others to pick it up. The heat action platform is another great place to go. It's fun with short videos and very engaging and so lots of resources and technical support and just. One more thing, Tom, I wanna say for folks that are thinking about the ministry for the future and reading it or listening to it mm-hmm. That first chapter is so incredibly sobering. But it ends well. So stick with it. Don't just read the first chapter because the book shows us how we can do this and it's a fascinating. Entertaining story, but it also ends with human victory. So I recommend Stick with it. Past chapter one. Spoiler alert.

Tom Raftery: 42:24

Sorry. Great. Kathy, thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. It's been really, really interesting.

Kathy Baugham McLeod: 42:33

Thank you very much Tom, and thanks for covering this again. We need so much attention paid to this silent, invisible thing that this is, this, this helps a lot. Thank you very much. Sure.