Julia Souder: 0:03

And so flexibility that meets every hour of every day, of every month of every year can be met with long duration energy storage. And we can do this in an affordable manner. One of the pieces why this can be so affordable in matching the integration of renewable energy is also the fact that these assets last 10, 20, even 50 years. So you're getting a cost savings that this is something you don't have to change out every five to ten years. You have that security of knowing that you have an available product that you can rely on.

Tom Raftery: 0:32

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast. The number one podcast, showcasing best practices in climate emission, reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice, to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi everyone and welcome to episode 131 of the Climate Confident podcast. My name is Tom Raftery and before we kick off today's show I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping the podcast going and I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like minded individuals who are passionate about climate. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support will make a huge difference in keeping this show going strong. To become a supporter simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode or visit tinyurl. com slash climate pod. Now, without further ado, with me on the show today, I have my special guest, Julia. Julia, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Julia Souder: 1:54

Thank you, Tom. It's great to be here. My name is Julia Souder, and I am the Chief Executive Officer of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. We are a global secretariat based in Brussels with over 60 members and 20 countries. And we've been working hard to promote the value of long duration energy storage and the 4 trillion marketplace that exists, and the 8 terawatts of LDES that are needed to meet our global net zero targets.

Tom Raftery: 2:20

So, Julia, for people who might be unaware, what is long duration energy storage?

Julia Souder: 2:27

So, long duration energy storage provides a multitude of benefits and values to all of our communities. And we do this through the four families of long duration energy storage. So, long duration energy storage can be multiple hours, can be multiple days, can be seasonal. And so, being able to have that flexibility of providing clean energy when you need it is critical. And so, within these categories. One thing that the LDES Council does is promote the diversity. It's really important to have electrochemical long duration energy storage, which is pretty much the entire periodic table except lithium ion, really provide you values to remote centers, to urban centers, to island nations. And we also have pumped hydro or mechanical storage that it can be, you know, large scale and provide, you know, hundreds of megawatts of long duration energy storage over catching the heat in the, or the sun in the summer and providing heat in the winter. We also have thermal energy storage, which provides the different types of materials that you can have that are very inexpensive. Salt, rocks, and capture heat and use it for industrial services for months and years at an efficiency over 97%. And then we have chemical, which is hydrogen. So you have power, heat, and hydrogen, and you have multiple hours, multiple days, and seasons. So really capturing the need to address the flexibility of our changing grid.

Tom Raftery: 3:48

Okay. And I mean, we are, we're headed into a world where we're trying to decarbonize the electricity grid. And the most efficient, cost efficient and efficient ways of doing this seem to be with renewables, which are, as we are well aware, variable sources of generation and of course the grid needs to be balanced in terms of supply and demand. And this is why energy storage is becoming more and more important. And more and more in demand I'm thinking because we need to manage supply and demand and have them in balance. And so one of the issues with this has been that energy storage isn't cheap. So how are we addressing that?

Julia Souder: 4:43

Great point, because there are a lot of assumptions that are made that we're really trying to provide fact based information to really change the marketplace. We need, as you point out, 24 7 reliable, affordable, secure power, and this needs to be clean, renewable. And so to make sure this happens, there's where long duration energy storage comes into play. And we've published a few reports on our website, including the 24 7 clean power purchase agreement, demonstrating that when you have 60% integration of renewable energy, which many countries have already surpassed, you're going to start seeing the critical role of long duration energy storage be able to meet those hourly demands and needs, but also at a cost savings at under $100 a megawatt hour, $50 megawatt hour depends on the technology and the location. So we're already starting to see the cost parity of long duration energy storage and with the diverse technologies that are available. It's also really important to note that we are moving into climate dependent generation. So renewable energy that depends on the sun, the wind, is not available 24 7. And so we need long duration energy stores to provide this shifting, or you're starting to hear in many conferences, in many conversations, the word flexibility. And so flexibility that meets every hour of every day, of every month of every year can be met with long duration energy storage. And we can do this in an affordable manner. One of the pieces why this can be so affordable in matching the integration of renewable energy is also the fact that these assets last 10, 20, even 50 years. So you're getting a cost savings that this is something you don't have to change out every five to ten years. You have that security of knowing that you have an available product that you can rely on.

Tom Raftery: 6:26

Okay. And so we'll always hear this trope about renewables that the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow. And people talk about things like, you know, A winter or week when there's no wind, how would you get at grid scale energy storage that would last 3, days in the event that, for example, it was winter and the wind wasn't blowing?

Julia Souder: 6:57

Great question, Tom. And I think this is really important to capture because there is now a solution, and it actually has been around for a while. We just need to scale it up and get it more in the marketplace. The diverse elements of long duration energy stores that can charge up when you have the wind and the solar, and then hold it for days when you have these emergencies that they're not becoming our daily lives. So you can capture and hold for a week longer. You know, this clean energy you have. And when you get called upon to use it, it's available to you. So if you have a winter storm, and the ice has closed down your peacker plants, long duration energy storage can replace gas plants and provide that service for you, both in the heat and power, depending which type you have. I think the other thing, too, is really important is that, you know, we've had pumped storage available in the marketplace and many types and compressed air. But they're not called upon because not all of the different components of the market call out the benefits of long duration energy storage. So if we can create stronger market signals to have LDES show up, you know, to be able to prepare for the next week's, you know, multiple rainstorm and the next week's, you know, heat storm or freeze, then that has the preparation for LDES to be prepared and provide the services for weeks and months on end. And so we're looking at really showing that the inertia that can be provided by long duration energy storage the black start capability called up an emergency notice. The load following all these different elements that grid operators and distribution operators need can be provided by long duration energy storage. And so, yes, it's an available service that, you know, it does have its efficiency, you know, and that can be ready there to be called upon when needed.

Tom Raftery: 8:33

Okay, I'm curious, what are the challenges to the rollout of long duration energy storage? Is it economic challenges? Is it regulatory challenges? Is it technological challenges? Is it all of the above? Yes. Or something else entirely.

Julia Souder: 8:58

It's a, i I definitely think it's the fruit basket of all of the above. You know, I think one of the biggest misnomers is that long duration energy storage is, is 10, 20 years out? No, it's, it's here today. There are projects around the world that have been in existence for, for years. And have provided data to the customers and showed this reliable service, whether it is a small scale or large scale long duration energy storage is in the marketplace. And I think this is one thing that the council has been doing with our entire ecosystem, providing this data and this knowledge because we're not just the diverse technology providers of long duration energy storage. But we're also the ecosystem of equipment manufacturers, financiers, customers, developers, all working together to really highlight the essential need of long duration energy storage. Some of the barriers that we're really coming up to are, always improving education awareness, but also changing policies around the world for the marketplace. It's been really thrilling to see the motivation and the momentum behind the policymakers and regulators in European Union, UK, Australia, Canada, India, United States, all in the last few years, start changing the portfolio of what is needed to meet our net zero goal targets. And so this is something that we've been really promoting and amplifying that the policy changes that really create this 4 trillion market are starting to happen. We just need to make sure they call out all the additional benefits of what long duration energy storage can provide.

Tom Raftery: 10:24

Okay. And in terms of best practices, who's doing a really good job and who are the laggards who could be doing better? Well, you know, what, what, what do you think is, is, is Yeah. Who do you think is doing a good job?

Julia Souder: 10:43

As I've been traveling and attending various meetings around the globe, it's been really satisfying to see that there's a lot of conversation, acknowledgement of long duration energy storage. The market structures that we're seeing where certain countries like Australia pulls out and signals, we want a set target of almost 10 gigawatts of long duration energy storage is a very strong market signal that we're seeing. In the United States many states have done this in particular. California, New York. We hope to see many more. Canada is building on the momentum of the EU and the U. S. with also creating incentives for storage as a standalone. So you these, you know, the different tools in the toolkit, the public private partnerships, the billions of dollars that are being matched by the government to the private sector to really scale up these products has also been successful. In the Philippines there are four different markets that LDES can enter into. It's not confined to a bilateral. There's optionality for real time grid operations or also the ancillary service market. So and we're seeing the ongoing conversations in Europe really push forward the role for storage, highlighting long duration energy storage and really noting the toolkit can also include these 24 7 clean power purchase agreements. So that you really need again this this entire fruit choice in this basket to really pull forward to make sure that we have the diversity, and the optionality, but also the support mechanisms to give that security to the marketplace. And we are working together to de risk the transition. And what's gratifying to see is, you know, the billions of dollars in investment in long duration energy storage, but also the policies are coming to fruition. And now so many of the traditional customers are asking questions and starting to really get excited about the next marketplace for LDES, which is today.

Tom Raftery: 12:28

Okay. And in terms of the LDES Council, who are your membership? Are they utility companies? Are they energy storage companies? Are they technology companies? Are they governmental organizations? Are they, again, the whole fruit basket, all of the above? You know what? And who? Who? Who are your stakeholders? I guess even more. So who are you talking to to make this change?

Julia Souder: 12:58

The council is really promoting the value out of the ecosystem. You know, long durationary storage affects every part of our industrial sectors, our residential, our transportation, our, our local communities, hospitals, buildings. There are so many different venues that really data centers that really need LDES to make this transition happen. And so we've been working with the technology companies that have been promoting LDES and working on this for decades. But also we have companies that have come in that are newly started that are just starting to get into, you know, the various TRL stages from 34 up to nine. And so those shared lessons learned in collaboration are really something that the council promotes to expand this 4 trillion marketplace. So we're getting the shared expertise of thermal energy storage companies, of mechanical energy storage companies, of the electrochemical energy storage companies, you know, even the diversity of the different types of flow batteries working together, whether you know, the iron, the vanadium, the zinc, the magnesium, the calcium, there's so many types of storage, but sharing the insights and lessons learned to really help push us forward. And then also the, you know, the chemical with hydrogen and the parallel process for hydrogen's hype. And now the next rule is LDES hype. But we also, as I mentioned earlier, have the financiers, those who want to help fund the projects, those who want to invest and really see the success. We have the equipment manufacturers knowing that there's a huge opportunity here to really build upon. We've also got the customers and developers and some utilities that are really trying to understand that the various benefits, strategies and push forward this, this whole platform of what we're trying to achieve as a, as a collaborative group. And so what's also thrilling is you mentioned different stakeholders. We have over 30 MOUs with various trade associations around the world. So energy storage, wind, groups, working on shared policies, really trying to be effective and efficient because 2030 goals are less than seven years away and working together really helps us achieve our targets faster. In addition to many different trade associations, we've also been working with the World Bank on public private partnerships, pilots in the global south, really again, promoting the value add and diversity of LDES. We've been working with various governments about sharing data and national labs about collaborations on pilots and again, getting information out there so that we are really expanding the knowledge base of the tremendous value of long duration energy storage to meet our global targets. And we've also helped initiate the Global Renewables Alliance. It is a brand new organization that was launched at COP 27 where you bring together the global wind, global solar, global hydropower, global geothermal, global green hydrogen and global long duration energy storage. So the six organizations that pull together the clean energy industry are now working collaboratively on coordinating planning, on just and equitable transition, on marketplaces, and on 24 7 carbon free energy. And so this coordination efficiency and this kind of network of, you know, bilateral and, and multilateral operations is also a wonderful opportunity for us to bring in diverse stakeholders to push forward these policies to meet our global net zero targets.

Tom Raftery: 16:15

Okay, great. I was listening to a, I think it was a BBC podcast yesterday where they were talking about the challenges are in the global south for projects to receive, not to receive, but the challenges to roll out clean energy projects because of the cost of capital and there was a, the reason this was being reported was because there was an initiative proposed by, I think was a minister from Barbados talking about how someone like the IMF should step in and give funding or guarantee, that's what it was guarantee the funding for clean energy projects to de risk them and therefore reduce the cost of capital. So it seemed from what the BBC report was saying that this might actually get some legs and free up hundreds of billions of dollars or euros for these kind of projects. So I'm guessing that would, I mean, it's the Global South where we really need to be rolling it up, rolling out a lot of these initiatives, right?

Julia Souder: 17:25

Yes, very much so. And just in the past six months, the dialogue has completely shifted over how to finance clean energy projects and the role that long duration energy storage comes in to make sure you have that portfolio of the 24 7. It's also making sure that island nations around the world you know, are working not only with the World Bank, but the Asia Development Bank, the Caribbean Development Bank, the African Development Bank, all of these new banks are creating new criteria and long duration energy storage is becoming a part of making sure that costs can be lowered using efficient systems and some leapfrogging just to completely push to a whole new mechanism that works for the local economy is going forward. So it's thrilling to see more investment. I think now we just need the actual implementation. And the partnerships to be held accountable. So we look forward to working with the various development banks, various traditional banks, various financial organizations to make sure that the right contracts are in place to really build the new clean energy infrastructure needed.

Tom Raftery: 18:21

Okay, great. Getting back to that trope I mentioned earlier about the sun not always shining and the wind not always blowing. One answer that I posit for that is interconnectivity because in fact the sun is always shining and the wind is always blowing. Somewhere. It's just a question of getting the energy from where it's being generated to where it's required. So, what do you, what do you think of the value of interconnects between grids in that kind of scenario?

Julia Souder: 18:55

It is true that the system always has this kind of 24 7 workability, but it does have stalling elements where you need to bring long duration energy storage in to get that continuity and resiliency. It's one of the, the cost benefit analysis that the council has done is, is brought together some of the savings you get when you need to defer transmission or distribution costs, because it might take 7 to 10 years to plan for transmission or distribution line. And in the meantime, long duration energy storage can provide that congestion relief, that additional flexibility. You know, the different types of ancilliary services that a transmission line or generation or even distribution can provide all this can step in and do that. So one of the elements to avoid this global crisis of interconnection queue delays is to start coordinating on planning, maybe a parallel processes to look at the different benefits of co location when you're looking at a new solar wind farm, having long duration energy storage there at the site, or if you need to have, you know, the planning looking at a different part of the system. How do you have a stronger network by looking at your entire portfolio? So long duration energy storage is a solution to kind of moving us through this congestion of chaos with the transmission queues and the connection elements and providing some of the strengths to the seams that connect the wind and solar 24 7 to the various infrastructures.

Tom Raftery: 20:14

Julia in a couple of previous episodes of this podcast, people have talked about how you define whether energy is green or not, depending on when it was generated, depending on, the amount of green energy generated in a particular time frame, so for example, whether you measure it, percentage of green energy generated in a month, or in a quarter, or in a week, or in a day, is it green or not? And, you know, this has accounting implications for percentages and for credits and things like that. Is that something that LDES plays into as well?

Julia Souder: 22:17

Great question, Tom, because the accountability for really understanding that every hour of every day being met with clean energy is is critical. We really need to demonstrate that this transition can happen moving from fossil fuels to 100% renewable energy, but we need to various tools to do this. And so the LDES council worked with our diverse membership to bring forward a 24 7 clean power purchase agreement building on existing tool that's used in various parts around the world. But adding in this, this component where you get the cost savings and accountability from long duration energy stores, providing this value of the 24 seven matching, and then you're also getting the, you know, again, the energy shifting that flexibility that when currently today, many of these hours are filled with fossil fuels this will no longer take place cos LDES can match those hourly needs. This 24 7 clean power purchase agreement really demonstrates that every hour can be met with clean energy. And it's a really important tool that we've been working with the Global Renewables Alliance and many of our members to promote this, this tool that can actually give the transparency to give the strength and validation behind our clean energy transition. It's also helpful to note that new out of the 17 sustainable development goals that the UN has been promoting. Over 10 can be met with long duration energy storage. And this is another tool to demonstrate how this is happening. And same with scope 1, 2, and 3 emissions, how LDES can help the various industrial sectors also demonstrate that they are truly transitioning and that LDES can provide this flexibility, reliability and resiliency that various customers are looking for.

Tom Raftery: 23:50

Okay, interesting. I had recently on the podcast a company called Husk Energy. And they're based in India and Africa. And they're creating little microgrids for, villages that don't have energy to date, for example. And they're doing it with a combination of solar and batteries. And, they'll roll out a 50 kilowatt solar array and a battery backup facility for a village of, I think it's up to 400 residences, that kind of thing, and it can scale up as more electricity is required. So would something like that be considered, interesting to someone like the, the Long Duration Energy Storage Council? Is it something that you would consider as well? Or are you looking more at larger grid scale projects rather than micro grids?

Julia Souder: 24:45

One of the benefits of why our members continue to join the LDES Council is this diversity. So we have members that have projects that are currently up and running in parts of Africa, working with an agricultural firm that has a, you know, onshore wind product that they really need to have the stability and reliability, so they brought LDES in. It's its own little microgrid. We have parts in the Middle East where it's providing heat and cooling and that projects have been working up and running with concerning solar power and thermal energy storage. We have projects that are working with the mining industry, whether they're attached to the transmission grid, providing that continuity of service, but also some infrastructure that is so, so rural that again, it has long duration energy storage to provide that 24 7 clean power. And so we do have microgrids set up around the world, Latin America, United States, agriculture again, some of the airports in Europe are replacing backup diesel generators with long duration energy storage to kind of provide local services. I mentioned island nations earlier, you know, really making sure that the solar that kept capturing is used for tourism industry. There are definitely opportunities for ongoing co location and projects where you get the microgrid benefits, but also there are many projects that can be large scale and provide you know, to whole counties or provinces or states where long duration energy storage provides value. It's the diversity that's so important and why this marketplace is critical because we need to make sure that for every local needs, there is a tool that can be used to really implement this 24 seven, it's flexibility and reliability. And long duration energy storage has this in the marketplace. We just need to scale up to reach the eight terawatts of long duration energy storage that we need. This is an enormous number, but if you're looking at the global conversation about annual needs for renewable and solar. You can't have that that certainty without long duration energy storage in that partnership. So it's fantastic to see global leaders and local leaders start really pushing for this initiative to change policies, but it has to have long duration energy storage there if you really want to have your needs met to have that security affordability and reliability with LDES.

Tom Raftery: 26:50

Okay. And just room A gigawatt is roughly the output of a nuclear power plant. A terawatt is a thousand gigawatts, right? And so you need 8 terawatts is 8, 000 nuclear power plants, which don't exist anywhere right now. Where does the 8 terawatt number come from?

Julia Souder: 27:14

So one of our initial flagship reports, we studied the global footprint of what is needed for various countries around the world to meet their local targets for decarbonization and net zero goals. For example, Europe needs over 200 gigawatts of LDES and by 2035. And so, you know, if you're looking at United States, 400 gigawatts of long duration energy storage, if you're looking at Australia, we've really been able to kinda highlight different countries, but when you look at the marketplace for where solar and wind need to be, then you also have long duration energy storage needs. So there's a lot more information in our four reports on our website where we're looking at the power, heat sector and hydrogen, and we're really trying to demonstrate again, an entire ecosystem that almost every part of our daily lives is going to need some part of LDES to make sure that we have the renewable energy that we want and this transition to happen. One other thing I wanted to highlight is you know, if we don't build out as much wind and solar, you can definitely have the LDES as a backup as a mitigation measure. We're not going to be able to put solar and wind in every location. There is a balance and trade offs with environment and mitigation and conservation that is really important. But that's also a role for long duration energy storage to come in and be able to fill in the gaps and fill in the needs because it has that diversity and flexibility where various communities need to have different elements. But yes, it's thrilling to see that the momentum in the push, it is a enormous amount of scale that we all have to continue to work on. I mean, this is, you know, 15-20GW we need, you know, hundreds of gigawatts as we move forward. So we can get there. But again, it's a collaboration and working all together to continue to help each other feel comfortable as we de risk the energy transition.

Tom Raftery: 28:55

Okay. And you mentioned 2030 is, it's actually now less than six and a half years away and Europe's goal is 55% emissions reduction by 2030. So in six and a half years, less than six and a half years. What are the chances?

Julia Souder: 29:18

I'm an optimist. So I'm looking forward to seeing us really kind of have the momentum. We're gonna have more climate disasters. And so I think, you know, we have, we're gonna have growing crises and we need to keep making these opportunities and we need to be more proactive and policymaking to make sure that we can have the scale up. I mean, there's It's going to push us, but I think we're going to have to adapt as we all do and just really acknowledge the fact that we are changing our entire World. We are changing what we are accustomed to, to something very different. And now it's becoming funneled down into very strict timeline. So you're right, Tom, we don't have much time. And I think this is starting to set in with all of us around the world as we constantly experience these climate changes that are creating more and more of a crisis, but we have the tools. We have the mechanisms. We can push harder on the policies to really support each other to scale up. Long duration energy storage has been in the marketplace and we need to just grow it so that it really can meet all the the demands of the growing solar and wind that we need to to really plan for and build. All of those can be built in two to five years. It depends again on the technology. So let's really start pushing the policies to bring in the projects that can be met today, built in a year, start scaling up. And then again, have those parallel processes where if you have pumped hydro or a different type of LDES that needs, you know, a few more years, at least you have the signals today to get the financing, to get the support and the permitting started. So that in the next two to five years, when we're looking around saying, how are we going to meet these changing demands? We're there, we're prepared and we're ready. We're taking a more proactive stance by bringing LDES into the marketplace today.

Tom Raftery: 30:59

There's a quote from climate scientist Kevin Anderson that I think is interesting. He said, and I'm, I'm going to butcher it and trying to rephrase it, but he said, roughly, we are in for a radical future. We either a, ignore climate change and reap the radical changes that'll, rain down on us or we go all out and to fight climate change, and therefore we radically change our society. But in either scenario, there is no option. We are going to have a radically different future. It captures nicely and I, I, he, he said that in 2014. So I think today, this is the end of June 2023, I'm in Seville in the south of Spain, we are in the first day of what's going to be a week of brutal weather, where the temperature, the daytime high is going to be above 40 every day for the next week. So we're, we're starting to see now the radical changes because we haven't moved fast enough. So I think we are going to need to really, really, really move hard in the next six and a half years and beyond because I think 2030, is just the start because if we do manage to reduce the emissions 55% by 2030, that's the low hanging fruit. The other 45% are going to be harder to get out of the system in the following 20 years. So this is, this is not a short term thing. This is not going to go away anytime soon. Having said that, we're, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Julia.

Julia Souder: 32:45

It's all about the long duration.

Tom Raftery: 32:46

There you go. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Julia. Is there any question I haven't asked that you wish I had or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about?

Julia Souder: 32:59

Tom, I really, again, appreciate the time with you today and to really highlight the value out of long duration energy storage. So one last thing is the term flexibility is used a lot and will continue to be used a lot, exactly to the point of the climate dependent generation that we're all moving towards. But I'd like to inspire hope and participation with all the different stakeholders that are working to fight climate change and the fact that long duration energy storage is an essential tool to do this and that there is a community willing to really sit down and work to help on the policies and the financing and development and that we are excited to be part of the conversation and the improvements to meet our net zero targets, and we can do this decarbonisation together, as long as we continue to bring LDES into the conversation.

Tom Raftery: 33:45

Superb, superb, Julie. That's been great. If people would like to know more about yourself, long duration energy storage or the council or any of the things we talked about in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Julia Souder: 34:00

I would direct you to in the group to The Long Duration Energy Storage Council website. We have four public reports and a lot of data and benchmarking there to highlight the diversity of LDES. You're also seeing the various partnerships we have around the world and opportunities to learn more with our one on one webinars and also to become a member.

Tom Raftery: 34:19

Superb, superb. Julia, that's been fantastic. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Julia Souder: 34:24

Thank you, Tom, very much. Really appreciate the time and look forward to the conversation of LDES taking over the world.

Tom Raftery: 34:37

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to Tom raftery@outlook.com. Or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please, don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks, catch you all next time.