Tucker Perkins: 0:03

The electric grid in the U. S. is fairly dirty from a greenhouse gas perspective. And probably not a shock. 60 percent of the grid today comes from burning natural gas, coal, and oil. So not too big a shock, but even as we think about the future. To your point, you've made it, but it's all about battery storage, right?

Tom Raftery: 0:24

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 174 of the climate confident podcast. My name is Tom Raftery. And before we kick off today's show, I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of our amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping this podcast going. And I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. Today, I'm talking to Tucker Perkins from the P E R C. We'll get it out in a minute. And in upcoming episodes, I'll be talking to Kathleen Biggins from C Change Conversations. Brian Sheng from Aquaria. And Yonatan Neril. You'll have to wait and see what that one's about. if you're not already a supporter of this podcast. I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about climate. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros or dollars. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support who make a huge difference in keeping the show going strong. To become a supporter. You simply click on the support link in the show notes of this, or any episode, our visit. Tiny url.com/climate pod. Now without further ado. With me on the show today, as I already mentioned, I have my special guest, Tucker. Tucker. Welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Tucker Perkins: 2:07

Yeah, Tom, thanks for having me. I'm so excited about the conversation that's going to be in front of us. I'm Tucker Perkins. I'm the president and CEO of an American group called the Propane Education and Research Council. And we'll talk about what we do, but we're in the middle of this climate discussion for the last nearly a decade. And I'm happy to be with you this morning.

Tom Raftery: 2:30

Do please tell me a little bit about the, the, the Propane Council and what your work is and, and why.

Tucker Perkins: 2:38

Yeah, I think the propane council and I'm going to call it PERC from here on P E R C really has a unique role among really all of the low carbon fuels. Our primary role every day we think about safety and training. So people are using propane or LPG as it's known around the world that they're using it safely. And it doesn't really matter who, whether it's an end user, someone who's trying to learn how to use their grill properly, a plumber or a contractor installing devices or an industry that are delivering servicing equipment. So safety and training a big part of our day. The 2nd part is really innovation and appliances to have. We've been working on more efficient appliances for decades. Years ago, it was to make, it was to make them better, to make them lower cost. Today, it really has played out for us as we think about having reduced emissions, but we work with every manufacturing segment those who labor for agriculture, those in on road, forklifts, home appliances, to make them the best they can be, and really to kind of bring the best technologies from around the world back to the U. S. And then lastly, we really have engaged in the environmental conversation. I refuse to call it a transition. I think it's far too bumpy and lumpy to use a word like transition. It's a transformation, but really to position propane as not only just a fuel of the past, but very much a fuel of the future as you really think about low carbon fuels. And that's led us to things like renewable propane. It's led us to work with those people as they make propane to make even newer and newer versions of propane. So we're, we're working in all of these facets communicating safety and training and a large part of innovating like a venture capitalist.

Tom Raftery: 4:32

Okay. Interesting. And this is obviously the Climate Confident Podcast, where we talk about successful emissions reduction stories and strategies. So why are we featuring propane on this podcast given, apart from the renewable propane, you're, you're mentioning there, the vast majority of propane is a fossil fuel and causes emissions.

Tucker Perkins: 4:58

Yeah, Tom, I think that's, that's the question I think we face almost every day. And I think that the narrative, perhaps it's a fading narrative right now, but the narrative for the last five years or more has been that the path to a clean climate is through electrification. It's largely a singular path. And we, we really like to talk about a wider path. We believe five years ago, that couldn't be true. Not the least of which is you have to make electricity from something. So here we are going to demonize coal, oil, and wood, but we're not going to demonize electricity that's made from coal, oil, and wood. And everyone had an aspiration that electricity could come from solar and wind, but we tend to know that now we're beginning to see that's probably not a quite a true story. So as we invoke this wide path theory that we need all fuels that can be clean and serve energy needs and the natural gas industry and the propane industry are inseparably linked a few differences, but we're inseparably linked and you know what we see is for some energy dense applications, heating buildings when it's very cold, powering vehicles, particularly heavy, large vehicles, probably electrification isn't going to be the proper answer. And so we're talking about propane because not only is propane very very appropriately a fuel of today, as we think about not only clean environment, but we think about affordability we think about access. It's very much a fuel of the future when all of those needs are even magnified,

Tom Raftery: 6:36

Okay, interesting. I would probably dispute the fact that wind and solar can't supply all our needs given the fact that one of the largest economies in the world in California has been running on about 93 percent of its grid by renewables in the last 30 to 40 days. And that's, that's obviously a combination of solar, wind and batteries because they're deploying significant amount of batteries there. So. Fair enough, there might be places like heating and maybe some places in transportation where it might be appropriate. But in terms of generating electricity, I think massive amounts of electricity now can be generated with just renewables and storage. We're seeing the rollout of big storage projects in Australia, South Australia, for example, are rolling out two, two gigawatt storage facilities run by, by batteries. So, yeah, I, I, back over to you on

Tucker Perkins: 7:34

know, I really I Yeah, I really won't disagree with you about two points you made there. One where you have really ample land and perhaps some unique physical properties like abundant sunshine or frequent wind and you so you can match those intermittent forces with storage, then you can do it. I would tell you two things be very aware of California in that a lot of the data is sometimes not quite clear. So California is a classic example. They're not very transparent about imported power. So when they talk about it, but I would agree with you that in any one day or even any one week, the numbers can look different. But I would say, if you look at electricity demand, and we're seeing it now, data centers and, EV charging, you know, if you really look at it over time of day, so you look at it over a 24 hour period for week long or month long or year long, the data is shocking and, and we've studied this because again, we're not anti electrification by any means. We're trying to understand how propane fits in that larger society, right? How will propane play a role? Should propane play a role? What appliances and techniques do we need if it is going to play a role? But even we are shocked as we look at time of day variance and we look at the carbon intensities of the electric grid in the U. S. which is mainly where we studied it to realize the electric grid in the U. S. is fairly dirty from a greenhouse gas perspective. And probably not a shock. 60 percent of the grid today comes from burning natural gas, coal, and oil. So not too big a shock, but even as we think about the future. To your point, you've made it, but it's all about battery storage, right? It's that's the secret key to solar and wind.

Tom Raftery: 9:29

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned renewable propane there earlier on. People might not, people listening might not be familiar with the concept of renewable propane because it's not something we've had mentioned on the podcast before 100 and whatever 70 episodes into it at this point. We've had, I've had a couple of episodes talking about renewable methane from bioreactors. Talk to me a little bit about renewable propane. Where does that come from and what kind of percentage of propane today is renewable?

Tucker Perkins: 10:03

Yeah. Interesting question. And, and even people inside the industry aren't often quite aware of all of the facets of renewable propane. So let's go back the carbon intensity of conventional propane is fairly similar to the conventional carbon intensity of natural gas. To make renewable propane, we were looking for waste sources. So today where we make renewable diesel or sustainable aviation fuel, that same process using fats, oils, and greases is making renewable propane. And that's across the world. That's the primary resource we have today. I would say two years ago, that's probably where this conversation would have ended. We're going to be, you know, made in partnership with renewable diesel or sustainable aviation fuel from fats, oils, and greases. Now, after quite a bit of research, quite a bit of work with department of energy, quite a bit of work with leading universities really around the world, because this isn't this isn't uniquely American. The need to lower the carbon intensity of our fuels is universal. Now we begin to see some of the same feedstocks that, to your point, you mentioned about renewable methane landfill gases, wasted uses of methane. We're able to fairly easily convert that to a renewable propane. So, the carbon intensity of those products can be zero, can be significantly negative. The, the one probably holy grail for all of us is to go today where we're making natural gas and methane is escaping into the atmosphere to be able to capture that methane and easily convert it to renewable propane. And we're doing it in the lab now. It is interesting to kind of note that we can do almost anything in the lab. The question is, can we do it at scale and at cost? And then if we can, is the feedstock going to be sustainable? And I think that's the, that's the world we find ourselves in right now. But to be very clear, we're doing it from fats, oils, and greases today. And, we see a lot of promise for things like wasted methane streams, which are everywhere. The last thing I'll talk about in Germany has kind of led this conversation would be around e fuels. So fuels that start from electricity, we get the hydrogen from, you know, electrolysis, and then we mix it with waste CO2. So then again, we make a renewable propane, but we're, we're making it from what starts as the electrolysis. And that we're doing that where we have abundant sunshine. It ultimately is a derivative of hydrogen. What's interesting with hydrogen, we just don't talk about it very much. Hydrogen is a really difficult... once you've made it.

Tom Raftery: 13:04

Yeah.

Tucker Perkins: 13:04

Hydrogen is a very difficult molecule to transport store use, right? It's as I say, it spends its entire life thinking about how to escape. Smallest molecule on earth really needs to be moved at high pressures. So we're in some projects now around the world. The most promising one right now is in Chile, but where we have abundant sunshine, we make hydrogen. We then mix that. hydrogen with wasted CO2. Now we've made renewable propane, which is quite easy to store and transport for thousands of kilometers if we need to. Then we can use that. Germany was kind of the leading place. I saw the conversation around e fuels largely driven by Porsche who knew they needed a responsible liquid fuel for their older vehicles. But we're kind of gives you the breadth. We're moving everywhere from reducing the carbon intensity of conventional propane to making renewable propane that would be significantly negative in carbon. And it allows us to mix those because we really need to be in the conversation. We are in the conversation around zero carbon. What's your path to zero carbon and now we can do that as we talk about blends of propane and renewable propane.

Tom Raftery: 14:31

Okay. And how does renewable propane compare on a, on a price per, I don't know, is it measured in BTU? Is it measured in liters? Is it measured in barrels? How does it measure versus standard propane?

Tucker Perkins: 14:50

Yeah, so so the I want to answer that eventually directly, but let me answer indirectly first We to your point we completely agree that what we have found what research has shown but we found it in the real world people want a cleaner fuel, but their desire to pay for that varies quite a bit. But most people, when the price is up 10%, 15 percent from their conventional source, they're not as interested, right? Maybe a unique, a unique set of conditions, says they'll pay 25 percent more, but what we've found, frankly, is for renewable propane to be saleable, even with all those features and benefits, the minute it's priced about 20 percent over conventional propane, people aren't that interested. So, whenever we think about the conversion, we think long about the efficiency of the process, the cost of the feedstock, the final cost of the renewable propane. And we know we need to be within 15 to 20% at the maximum to make it salable. Now in the U S that's quite doable with renewable propane because we have a credit to the producers. And in many States, there's a credit to the consumer who uses it. And those two credits allow us to sell it almost at parity. With renewable propane.

Tom Raftery: 16:24

Okay. Interesting.

Tucker Perkins: 16:25

that's not something that you have the luxury of throughout most of the rest of the world. Even, even Canada doesn't have that luxury right now.

Tom Raftery: 16:33

Okay. Okay. And you mentioned that replacing diesel with propane can reduce emissions. Can you give some examples or data that, that illustrate that point?

Tucker Perkins: 16:46

Yes, I can. And that's, that's, that is our key target right now. As I, as I travel around the country and I see children struggling with asthma and bronchitis and a whole host of breathing disorders, I realized that for most of them, we could clean up that problem for them tomorrow by just migrating from diesel fuel to propane. And I'll give you lots of specific examples. We tend to not think about light duty cars, passenger cars, even pickup trucks. It's just the fuel economy is doing fine. They are ripe for electrification. We're very much more focused in in medium duty, heavy duty, transportation. School buses, last mile delivery, the trucks that bring you water and chemicals and books to your school. But in those cases, let's just start with the particulate matter. Particulate matter is a known carcinogen. We can't say we reduce particulate matter a hundred percent. But I can say 99. 99%, and I can tell you with most measuring devices, we can find no particulate matter. So we've reduced particulate matter to nearly zero. NOx emissions are not those emissions that come, that are harmful to our lungs, create asthma, bronchitis, COPD in adults harmful to plants and animals. Compared to modern, modern diesel, the very key word there, we still reduce NOx emissions, 97 to 98%. Okay. An incredible reduction clears the skies immediately, if you could make that switch. And then lastly, greenhouse gases, which has been really our most difficult metric. The one we use to talk about climate change, specifically modern engines, we reduce greenhouse gases 14 to 20 percent kind of depends on the engine, exactly what we're doing with that engine, but we're in partnerships for the next stage of technology. And those engines cut greenhouse gases 25%. Lastly, to your point, I think, as we think about innovation, we now are not only confirming that a hybrid system. So an electric powertrain matched to this very modern internal combustion engine. That is the system of the future. And Tom, five years ago, I don't think that was rational. We couldn't find the powertrains. We couldn't find the engineers who could put it together. We didn't have these modern engines. Now, as we look out just one or two years, we're in multiple partnerships with companies, and you'll see us bring a host of hybrid technology when we do that. So modern engine coupled with a modern hybrid powertrain, we'll see emissions cut 40 to 50 percent greenhouse gases.

Tom Raftery: 19:35

Okay. Okay. So similar to a hybrid in standard vehicles, this would be a hybrid in a truck, which would have a battery solution and then backed up by an internal combustion engine, which is burning propane. Is that the idea?

Tucker Perkins: 19:51

That is the idea. And we, and we knew that, that, that if you looked at it just as a as an engineer, we knew that that combination was quite a winning combination for power, initial cost, operating cost, emissions benefits, longevity, but it's really just been the last 4 or 5 years that we've begun to see the technology catch up to the engineering. And, and again, we don't think much about passenger cars. Now, Mr. Toyoda, the chairman of Toyota, you know, he talks about it quite a bit and he uses, as he thinks about batteries for passenger cars, I think he talks about one six 90, as he thinks about the battery materials that can go into one complete electric car is enough to power six plug in hybrids or 90 mild hybrids. I would say the engine architecture of cars is almost nothing like the engine architecture of trucks. And it's, it's been eyeopening for me to realize that. It's not like you just take everything in a car and make it a little bit bigger and it works in a truck. just doesn't work that way, but we're now we're now past all that. And, and you'll see something we've been driven, no pun intended to produce. Because we see the combination of benefits to the users and benefits to the community in terms of reduced emissions, quiet, all the things we think about when we think about light duty electric vehicles. And so that's the last piece of this. Now, imagine the power of a mild hybrid, if you would, with his most modern engine burning renewable propane, really, there is nothing that we've seen yet that can compare in the narrowest metric of climate benefit.

Tom Raftery: 21:44

Okay and...

Tucker Perkins: 21:44

We're excited about that.

Tom Raftery: 21:47

The, in terms of engine modification, is there much modification required to burn propane in a, in an engine versus diesel?

Tucker Perkins: 21:58

So, two types of ways we do it. A diesel engine doesn't use spark plugs. It's a compression ignition engine. Lots of features and benefits about that. Where a modern gasoline engine or a propane engine or a natural gas engine, they have spark plugs and that's a spark ignited engine. It is pretty interesting that over the last months, those engines are coming much closer in terms of our ability to use propane in a compression ignition engine or use it in a spark ignited engine. I'm not really ready to reveal all of that science, but I would tell you it is amazing. As an engineer to see what the world of engineering can come up with. So today we're adding spark plugs to gasoline engines for lack of a better description but still gaining the durability and efficiency of a diesel engine, but I do I'll, I'll predict for the first time I've really been public with this, that over the next five years I think you'll see a muddying of some diesel engines that are using mixtures of diesel and propane and some spark ignited engines that are using mixtures of renewable propane and propane all to achieve what I would say will be massive environmental benefits.

Tom Raftery: 23:50

Fascinating. Fascinating. And I got to think you're in a unique position advocating for propane in the clean energy conversation. That's a stance which, you know, would often be met with skepticism, given the traditional fossil fuel origins of traditional propane. How do you address concerns regarding industry bias or the long term sustainability of investing in propane technologies?

Tucker Perkins: 24:19

I think one, I think we approach it every day with a bit of skepticism as well. I think that keeps our eyes wide open because we are representing the industry and we really are making bets today that won't materialize sometimes for 10 years out or more. And we really are trying to understand how it all fits together. I would say at the end of this, we're really representing consumers and it's an important distinction, you know, about how can we get to a cleaner climate with an affordable set of solutions, one that actually has enough to be there when we need the lights to be on and the heat to be on and we need to cook our food and we need to have vehicles deliver the goods and services we need. So we approach that with a high degree of skepticism ourselves. And I think it keeps us quite honest. And I think if you hear me talk very long, you see us often think about the full impact of these decisions, right? I find zero emission vehicles to be a bit fraudulent in that. Yes. You know, there are zero emissions at the tailpipe. They're not even zero emissions at the tires or the brakes or the paint or whatever, and we breathe all of the equation, right? So as we to your point earlier, one, I think we approach every day as a bit of a skeptic ourselves. How can we get to this? We don't think about how to use more propane. We think about how do we get to the climate solutions that we need to get to. And then we think about how can propane fit. It's a very different view. And one that I've tried to work with, you know, other fuel types to think more like we do. It takes, it takes a few extra steps, but I think at the end of the day, we get a much better product. The long and short of it is, and to your point, Europe is in a different place than North America, who is in a different place than Asia, who is in a much different place than Africa. And I know when people talk about the global South, not my favorite, you know, set of words to use we're all in a different place. And, you know, I'm always harking back to a conversation I had when I was working with some Africans a year or two ago, talking about renewable propane. And they said, well, Tucker, we aspire to use conventional propane. If we could get from, if we could get off biomass and dung and charcoal, we could clean our skies and perhaps save the lives of 3 million Africans every year who die from poor indoor air quality. So we're all in a different place, but I am very encouraged. One America's in a different place, right? We make most of the propane on this planet. We, by far the number one producer, by far the number one consumer, easily exported to the Caribbean, easily exported to South America, easily exported to Asia. And so we, we take that responsibility with a great degree of seriousness, as we think about how do we use those benefits to, but how do we get to a clean climate, one that's affordable? And I have to say for us, it's a fairly clear view. You know, we'll, we'll see where battery storage goes. I'm convinced that the batteries we talk about today, even in the laboratories won't be the batteries of the future. We'll find newer materials and more effective ways to store it for longer periods. I'm convinced that nuclear power needs to change, is changing and nuclear, you know, fusion will be the game changer.

Tom Raftery: 27:56

Yeah, yeah, I mean, the issue with nuclear, I guess, is right now it is too expensive and takes too long. If you try to start building a nuclear power plant today, you'd be lucky if it came online in 15 years and the cost per megawatt or megawatt hour would be significantly higher. And when you look at the costs of wind and solar and they're curving downwards all the time. You'd have to be a very courageous politician to advocate for building a nuclear power plant today, I think, but that's kind of a side, a side issue. Tell me in terms of renewable propane, what are the major challenges in scaling up the production of that and then having it adopted? What kind of infrastructure investments, for example, might be needed?

Tucker Perkins: 28:51

Well, the infrastructure is the good part because renewable propane and propane are the same molecule. So can store it in the same tanks, use it in the same trucks, put it in the same pipelines. That works fine. I do think that the challenge for all of us, as we think about renewable fuels in general, not just renewable propane, we're not just renewable methane, even renewable diesel and renewable gasoline or renewable plastics for that matter, is we're all looking at the same feedstocks. And so there's only a limited amount of fats, oils, and greases. There's only a limited amount of methane. And, and that's really where the science is being applied right now. As I talked about e fuels quite exciting because there's a place where we can find places that we have abundant land, sunshine, or wind to make hydrogen through electrolysis. But it's, it's really about feedstock availability. And if there is competition for feedstocks, well, the price of feedstocks increase, that's really good for some players, but it's also really bad for people who are relying on a low cost end product. So it's, if you would, it's kind of a three step process. What are the feedstocks, what's the efficiency of the conversion process? And then how easy are you to transport to markets? And right now most of the renewable propane we make is either in the south of Louisiana, Texas, in that oil patch, or in California where we have converted those existing refineries that used to make diesel fuel or or gasoline to make renewable diesel or sustainable aviation fuel. We are, we are in the first days of you know, a very long process and one of the things we think about daily is how do we get these renewable plants into places where they're closer to the people, into the Northeast, into the Midwest. And, and I think we'll get there, but it's going to take a host of fuels, a host of feedstocks and a host of processes. We're not going to get there with just renewable diesel, sustainable aviation fuel. And Tom, I work, I work on this issue at a global scale, right? Renewable energy isn't unique to America or unique to North America by any means, right? So, so we're working really collaboratively probably as well as we've collaborated on anything to think about how does Singapore produce renewable fuels? How do you do it in Europe? How can we do it in Africa when we have a blank slate going on? But the process is just still the same. The, the, the common bond is what feedstocks do we have that we can access at a low cost that are abundant and over the decades will continue to be abundant?

Tom Raftery: 31:52

Yeah. Yeah. Fair point. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be a sustainable supply as well. Yeah. Gotcha. Changing topics for a second, we're on the Climate Confident podcast, but you have your own podcast called Path to Zero. And in fact, if, if I remember correctly, you're, you're also bringing out a book under the same name, the Path to Zero. So talk to me a little bit about that. What would be some, I don't know, key insights or surprising viewpoints from your guests that have shaped your perception on clean energy coming from that?

Tucker Perkins: 32:27

Well, surprising insights. And thank you for talking about the podcast. The podcast started, had very little to do with propane and had everything to do with just trying to engage in a deeper conversation around the climate. The exact same thing you're doing. And so by virtue of that, we had experts on in the field of climate science, and carbon, and nuclear power of all colors and types, and hydrogen of all colors and types, and some of the best engineers out to talk about their field of expertise. We've had multiple guests talking about environmental equity, environmental justice, and really trying to just elevate the conversation sometimes in opposition, I think, to our internal views about how low carbon fossil fuels, I'll use your words for a second. I rarely call propane a fossil fuel, but a low carbon fossil fuel like propane or natural gas, how they fit in this equation. So it's been eye opening and I couldn't count the number of guests I've had that because of their expertise in their field. You know, what is going on with climate science? Where do we hide this carbon? Why do the oceans behave the way they do? Or how do the clouds impact the calculations such? Eye opening. From that perspective. And it's really allowed us to participate just like we're doing today in a more elevated conversation, other than the one you read in your daily newspaper that says, you know, electrification is the answer and the wind, wind and solar are free. So therefore electricity made from that will be free and abundant, right? We, we just knew those conversations were far too simplistic to even be true. And societies, I'll start countries, companies, and more importantly, yet individuals, they couldn't trust that because if they did, they would be the ones that have run out of power. They would be the ones that couldn't afford the utility bills, that food versus fuel debate that we often talk about. So the podcast has been an unbelievable vehicle. Now, to your point, and I'm a bit sheepish about it because I consider myself an author by any means. I have a brother in law who has been an author his entire life, and I see how he toils and labors to write books and research. This almost flowed naturally, if you would, out of conversations from the podcast and how we over the years have developed a very different view of getting to a cleaner climate than perhaps the common narrative was. To a degree this wide path I talk about. To a degree very much being thoughtful about environmental justice and not in a lip service kind of way but really thinking about what are these solutions going to cost? How easily can they be delivered to all people? Will their air actually be cleaner when they're enacted? And so the book is really just, it's, it's a unique story. It's told from the position of 2050 looking back. And I hope it'll be interesting reading for people, but I hope more importantly, it'll be thought provoking as, as people begin to think about how to engage in this environmental transformation.

Tom Raftery: 35:53

And when is the book being released?

Tucker Perkins: 35:56

It'll be released in September. Just actually just this week, we went into kind of a pre release publicity. And it's not at all about me. It's, it's really about the story that we're talking about today. It's about getting involved and perhaps being a little bit more active. It could be about conserving water, conserving energy, things that really only Europeans, I think, you know, two winters ago, you did something that I didn't think could happen, but you actually conserved energy. And so it really is more about how the every man can be engaged in this conversation, because I don't think that every man is involved in it today. It's something people are foisting on you. Utilities are forced to make decisions. And I think it's time for us to have a maybe perhaps a little bit broader discussion on it.

Tom Raftery: 36:52

Okay. Okay. Interesting. And looking, looking ahead, what policies or incentives do you think are necessary to get renewable propane and similar technologies, you know, up to scale?

Tucker Perkins: 37:06

Yeah, appreciate that question because I think if I step away from renewable fuels, I'm quite optimistic about the future, if you would, for low carbon, renewable fuels, specifically propane and natural gas. The industry understands the need to capture methane leaks. The industry understands the need to reduce the environmental impact. And while we don't talk about it as much as we should in the public view. More importantly, we're acting on it. So I'm very comfortable that we're coming to a stage where we'll have beneficial electrification from solar, wind. We'll mix in nuclear power. We'll mix in hydrogen. And behind all of that will be this backbone of natural gas and propane. For renewable propane to succeed, at least in the United States, we have had to have that incentive. We've had to have that incentive primarily to the producers to encourage them to take those steps to, to make massive capital investments at a time when consumers weren't really willing to pay a premium for those premium products. And I find that's the difficulty for worldwide adoption at scale, right? And to your point, renewable natural gas, renewable methane to you. It's, it's beginning to achieve scale. I think the last time I checked renewable natural gas was 14, 15 percent of the available supply, at least in the U S and no other renewable fuel is anywhere near that. Renewable propane, less than 1 percent today. Our goal is to make it 50 percent on a worldwide basis by 2050. But in order to do that two things are going to have to happen. We are going to have to incentivize the production. And I think we're going to have to become accustomed to perhaps that those renewable products might cost a bit more than the conventional product.

Tom Raftery: 39:08

Okay. Okay. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Tucker. Is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Tucker Perkins: 39:23

Well, you know, the people who train me in how to talk to media often say, when asked that question, you should always repeat, you know, your go to points. But I think you have done today such a good job as we think about the future, right? And the future is not just renewable propane, and that's, we go way out in the future and I'm I'm fuzzy way out in the future. What will batteries look like? What will nuclear power look like? What will even renewable energies from solar and wind? Cause they're changing daily. Right. So as we link out 30, 40, 50 years, I don't think the future is very clear, but as I look at a decade or two, or perhaps even three, I clearly see a role for environmentally sound propane, natural gas, renewable propane, renewable natural gas. And I'm optimistic about that. I do think no one is one solution. You didn't ask me that today. I don't dream of a world where propane or LPG is the dominant fuel for the globe, right? It's one fuel in a mix of environmentally sound solutions. And I think this conversation we're having today, the winds have changed Tom. Five years ago, we hoped that renewable electricity from solar and wind would be there, but now we see site locations are difficult, connecting the transmission lines are difficult. The growth, at least in America right now, the growth in the grid is exceeding our wildest expectations as we think about data centers and air conditioning and all kinds of things. I was reading last night about India's growth in air conditioning demand alone. It's massive. And so the, I think the future is bright. I think that we will rely on a host of fuels, not all of the fuels, because I think some fuels need to go away. I think diesel fuel is one that really needs to go away sooner, the better. But I do think we're on the right path now and we're having the right conversations now.

Tom Raftery: 41:25

Super. Super. Great. Tucker, if people would like to know more about yourself, or PERC, or Path to Zero, or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Tucker Perkins: 41:37

Well, the first place to go, we have a great website called propane. com and you can learn more, it's very US centric but you can learn more about these environmental benefits I've talked about. Maybe even the applications into the farm, or the home, or business on road applications. So propane. com is the first place I would go. Our, our podcast and the book Path to Zero. Dot com is a great place to go and to learn a little bit more about the podcast or the book.

Tom Raftery: 42:07

Okay. Superb. Great. Tucker, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Tucker Perkins: 42:13

And I appreciate your professionalism and I appreciate the work you're doing in this conversation as well. Thank you, Tom.

Tom Raftery: 42:21

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.