There are a lot of solutions that can be win win opportunities. And I think sometimes people in the climate space, you know, it feels like either or, right? Either we can have, nutritious food or we can have a stable climate. We can't have both. And I think we can't have that dichotomy, right? We have to make that work together. And there are solutions now. And I think we can bring even more into the toolkit that create that win win opportunity. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 199 of the Climate Confident podcast, almost at 200. My name is Tom Raftery. And before we kick off today's show, I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumentally keeping the podcast going, and I am really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter, I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like minded individuals who are passionate about climate. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros or dollars. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support will make a huge difference in keeping this show going strong. To become a supporter, simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode, or visit tinyurl. com slash climatepod. In today's episode, I'm talking to Katie Anderson from the Environmental Defense Fund. We're talking about methane. And in the episodes coming in the next few weeks, I'll be talking to Stephan Muller from SAP. We'll be talking about their new Green Ledger Initiative. Charlie Angelakos from McCains, the chip people. He's their chief sustainability officer, Anders Lindbergh, who's president of Wartsilia Energy and Angelo Campus, who's CEO of Box Power. So some excellent episodes coming up. So as they say in Radioland, don't touch that dial. But back to today's episode, and with me on the show today, as I mentioned, is Katie Anderson. Katie, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, absolutely, Tom. Great to be here with everybody. My name is Katie Anderson. I'm a senior director at Environmental Defense Fund, and I lead our work engaging companies across the food and agricultural supply chain on climate action and ambition. So really thrilled to be here with you today. Fantastic, and for people Katie who might be unaware, the Environmental Defense Fund is what? Environmental Defense Fund is a nonprofit advocacy organization focused on pragmatic solutions to the world's most pressing environmental challenges. And we're really focused on climate change. We believe that climate is a really critical challenge that we need to be addressing and in this decisive decade before 2030. And so my team is focused on really, how do we do that here at EDF? We are a science driven organization. We focus on economics and bipartisan policy. And then another bit of our work is really focused on corporate engagement. And how do we work to encourage and drive the private sector to support this transition to a more climate smart future. So, that's what my team specifically focuses on. And specifically within the food and agriculture space. Okay. And are you a US only organization, North America, Europe, global, you know, where do you, where do you operate? Yeah. We are a global organization and increasingly so. We have work that touches down in the U S. europe, India, and China. And then we also, you know, I work on global supply chains. So when I work with companies, they have supply chains that touch down in Latin America and Africa and Australia. So really thinking about how do we drive scaled impact across the world? Climate change is a, is a global issue, right? So we need to be working globally. And, and that's how we engage. And what's your personal route to where you got to today? Oh, great question. A lot of things. So my My mom grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, and we had a farm that I visited every year. My grandparents owned that farm in Iowa for, they still do, actually. Um, And so I really grew up understanding, that connection to agriculture, maybe more so than other people my age. I also grew up with a deep love of conservation. And so I kind of, I wanted to be Jane Goodall actually as my first foray into this space. But I spent a summer in college, I was fortunate enough to be able to spend a summer doing conservation biology work in the Western Ghats region, kind of the Southwest region of India. what was really interesting about that experience was, on a private wildlife sanctuary. But it was entirely surrounded by agriculture. and there was a lot of animosity, actually, between the kind of conservation minded sanctuary and the the economic development goals of the agricultural sector, and it became really crystal clear to me you know, people need to eat. People need livelihoods. And these things can't be in conflict. We have to find a way to make sure that we can meet our environmental objectives while feeding the world. And that's kind of how I got into, okay, I'm not going to do, you know, straight conservation biology, but instead focus on this applied work of you know, Tackling the food and agriculture space and really driving solutions that work for planet and work for people. So that's kind of how I, you know, ran from there for over a decade now, but that's some of I got into the space and why I'm passionate about it. Okay. And what would you say has surprised you most in your journey from undergrad to where you are today? Yeah, I mean, I think that first, there's a lot of solutions. And I think sometimes in the climate space don't think a lot about agriculture. And so I think that it's really important. And, and, and maybe that was surprising to me, honestly, Tom, as somebody who kind of came at this from an agricultural lens in and the climate lens and saw that value right away. It is definitely surprising how in the climate conversation broadly food and agriculture is still just now making its foray into kind of the mainstream discussions So I think that's that's one bit. I think also, you know, there are a lot of solutions that can be win win opportunities. And I think sometimes people in the climate space, you know, it feels like either or, right? Either we can have, nutritious food or we can have a stable climate. We can't have both. And I think we can't have that dichotomy, right? We have to make that work together. And there are solutions now. And I think we can bring even more into the toolkit that create that win win opportunity. So those are some of the things that have that have kind of shaped how I think about this and some of the surprises along the way. also one other Tom is so much of this is about interpersonal engagement, right? You know, I work with companies and they're just people. There's people at companies who are doing the work. We think of companies as these behemoths that are, uh, you know, just, Yep. yeah, exactly. But it's just people inside of companies who are trying to do their job well and drive impact. And if you can make that personal connection and understand the overlap and interest, then you can really make a lot of progress. Nice. Yep. And you said you're working with methane in agriculture. So why is methane such a pressing issue in the climate crisis right now? Yep. Yeah, so I think first before we go to methane, I want to also talk about food and why food matters in the context of the climate crisis, because I think that drives why methane matters. So we know that food and agriculture account for a third of the overall global climate impact and the main drivers of that are deforestation, and land use change. The 2nd is direct greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture. So that would be where methane and nitrous oxide fit. And then the 3rd is food waste. And so, a 3rd of the pie is, is from food and agriculture, and we know that that's only projected to increase in terms of how much climate impact is associated with food as global populations rise. So we absolutely need to be addressing climate impacts from food and agriculture. At the same time, we know that agriculture is seriously impacted already by climate change. So we're seeing things like from NOAA, natural disasters and severe weather have already caused 21 billion dollars in crop losses in 2023. In 2022, scorching heatwave killed thousands of cattle in Kansas. And there's, studies that are showing that wildfires in the West are driving dairy cows to produce less milk. So this isn't a future problem. This is a right now problem in terms of heat and weather impacting our food system. I think that that's why methane matters, Tom, because methane is a really potent but short lived greenhouse gas. means that it's kind of our emergency brake for the climate, right? If we can turn down methane right now, it's an opportunity to immediately slow the rate of warming. That puts us in the best possible trajectory toward a stable climate and reduces and kind of diffuses some of those serious impacts that we're going to experience as we get to a 1. 5 degree future, right? So I think methane needs to be front and center when we're thinking about our climate solutions. And that's really a key driver behind the work that we're doing in the dairy industry. Okay. And why the dairy industry? What's so special about that? Yeah. So the livestock sector broadly is around one third of all methane emissions globally. And that includes beef and also dairy. So, you know, cows when you think about a cow, you may not think of methane but, cows produce methane through their natural digestive process. And that's then emitted through enteric fermentation or cow burps. They also make methane through manure, depending on how their manure is stored. And so the dairy sector has a serious opportunity to reduce methane emissions today. And also future proof their business and ensure that they don't experience those really terrible impacts from climate change. So that is you know, one big reason why the dairy sector needs to be taking methane seriously. Okay. And what kind of actions can they take in the dairy sector to reduce the emissions of methane from the cattle apart from using fewer cattle? Yeah. Great question. So there's a lot of solutions that we have today, and we also know we need new innovation. So I bucket the solutions in kind of three key categories. One is herd management and kind of improving the, the feed, the nutrition, the health of your cattle. So happy cows, you know, make more milk. And if you can make more milk with less methane, then that can reduce the overall emissions of the global pool of dairy. And that's also really a critical tool, Tom, because it's. It's one that is one of those win win solutions, right? It improves farmer livelihoods, it increases income, it can, you know, support nutrition in a key community, especially when you're looking at smallholder farmers in Africa or Latin America. And so that feed and kind of herd health is a key contributor to climate and livelihoods. The second bucket is manure management. So when you store manure especially in more liquid forms, it creates a lot of methane. so in those settings, you can do things like separate the solids and the liquids, or capture the methane and flare it off, or even convert it into energy and that can help to make sure that we don't create more methane from the manure side. And then the last piece is enteric methane and this is the cow burps. And so, there are new technologies that are already on the market, such as Bovair that is now able to be used in most markets globally, and it's kind of a feed additive that you give to an animal, and it can reduce methane emissions in an absolute sense. form. So, you know, bovairs around 30% percent reductions methane. And there's others that are coming into the market as well. There's solutions like breeding or genetics, vaccines, even that people are studying to continue to drive more innovation on how to reduce enteric methane emissions. So we need to look at the whole toolkit. Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC. for a large farm in New York isn't gonna be the same as what works for a small farm in Morocco. And so we need just a wide set of solutions that are gonna fit to these different geographical contexts. Okay. And how big is your team as in you're talking about farmers globally, you know, I, I don't imagine that you and your team are going out visiting all the farms all over the world. So how do you make this happen? Yeah. So what we are really great at at Environmental Defense Fund is finding those scaled levers that drive change. So we are not. the business of telling farmers how to farm. No farmer wants me, Katie Anderson showing up at their, at their farm and telling them that. They are the experts of their business. They understand their, their land, their cows, you know, their business. And so that's not our job. But what we can do is really think about What are the systems that farms operate in? Right? They have policy environments around them and policy supports. How can we make sure that public sector funding is flowing to support the types of transitions that need to be made? We and we engage there in our key geographies, right? Working with policy makers on on solutions that are going to work for farmers. We engage the supply chain, right? That's my team's job. It's about how do we connect to these companies who are buying from farmers and help them be equipped with business action that partners with farmers through their supply chain to drive this transition, whether that's incentives or technical support, or, whatever program makes sense in that given context. And then we also think about the lending to farmers. So we have a whole team that focuses on loans. And how do we ensure that those are supportive of climate smart agriculture? So it's really an ecosystem that that any given farm is sitting in. And how do we make that system work as best as possible to farmers to this transition that we know we need to make to lower emissions and more resilient farming. Okay. And you've set up something called the Dairy Methane Action Alliance to work with farmers. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. We're really excited that the Dairy Methane Action Alliance now has 8 food and agriculture companies in it. includes big names that your, your listeners probably have in their pantry or their refrigerator, you know, Bell Group. Sonoma, Danone, General Mills, Kraft Heinz, Lactalis USA, Nestle, and Starbucks. Those are the members of the Dairy Methane Action Alliance and they have all agreed and committed to deliver and accelerate transparency and action on methane emissions in their dairy supply chains. this looks like is two core milestones that these companies are on a journey with us to engage on. The first is disclosing methane separately in their climate disclosures. And the second is creating a Methane Action Plan. And what we know from our years of working with companies is that by increasing understanding and awareness of the challenge, you know, measure, you can't what you don't measure. So getting that clarity on where the methane sits and what the barriers are and what, you know, how that fits into your climate profile and having a robust plan of attack that everybody across the business understands and is built into the business. The business action planning over time. Those are two key critical factors that drive corporate action over time. So it's really trying to drive that and scale that transition and support companies in in the delivery. Okay. And how do you get large companies like Danone and Nestle and Lactalis and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it must be challenging to a) just knock on the door and find the right person and b) have them agree to all come together in a project like this. Absolutely. Well, I think the first thing that's really important is that this action on climate and specifically for these companies that source a lot of dairy is very material to their business, right? This isn't, just doing good for the sake of doing good. This is about driving business value and it's about future proofing your products. It's about ensuring that your supply chain stays resilient. It's ensuring that your business stays competitive into the future. And even right now as consumers and investors are increasing their expectations of companies to address climate change. That's, I think a really critical bit of this, right? This is about delivering on business strategy and it's about delivering business wins. And then, you know, finding the right individuals and talking to them and building relationship, and I think that can be really powerful, right? Again, companies have change agents inside of them who want to drive change and are supporting that. And I think that's a key way that EDF is supporting those folks to continue to do their jobs well. I'm guessing that these companies are looking at the regulations that are either in place at the moment or coming down the line on scope 3 emissions. And of course, these, these methane emissions from the farmers are sourcing from would count as their scope 3 emissions. And so I'm guessing that's a large part of the incentive why they're they're jumping on board. Yeah, absolutely. For these companies who source a lot of dairy and also companies who source a lot of beef, you cannot meet your climate goals without addressing methane emissions. And so coming together collectively actually creates opportunities to meet solve problems collaboratively and pre competitively that everybody is going to face and it reduces reinvention of the wheel. You know, instead of every company trying things out and then, you know, needing to learn and scale and grow. How do we bring a collective together that can ensure that all these companies can progress faster? I think that's, you know, because they have these climate goals, they need to deliver and by coming together with others, they can deliver faster. And that's, again, a core way that EDF works with companies is, is how do we get to scale as quickly as possible? And we know that by learning from each other, that's one key way to do it. Okay. So they're sending a massive demand signal back out to the farmers. But how I mean, it's 1 thing to be someone like Danone and say, okay, you've got to reduce your emissions. But if I'm a small farmer in, I don't know, Montana or Africa or India or wherever, am I getting help from these customers of mine? Am I getting tutorials? Am I getting, you know, how, how am I changing what I do to help meet the demands of my customers the Danone's, and the Nestle's, etc. Yes, absolutely. So we know that this burden can't sit all on the farm gate, right? This has to be something that we need a broad tool of solutions, and we also need support to get those tools delivered. And so companies are depending on the geography, right? Those programs are going to look different, but really thinking about what are the financial incentives that can be provided? What are the technical supports that are needed? And also, in some cases, it's also cultural engagement, right? Farmers like to learn from other farmers. So we see things like farmer to farmer peer learning as a helpful tool that can be used to support practice adoption. And I think what's important here is that it's, it needs to be geographically relevant and then also dependent on the change you want to make. So some of solutions cost money up front, and it's a kind of in capital investment up front that then will eventually pay back in a return, right? And that's different structure that's needed for that farmer than a herd management in a smallholder farmer that kind of has immediate productivity value, and they may need more technical support. So I think in these action plans, we're equipping companies to think about, okay, in these different geographies, what's needed to support that. farmers in this transition. And I think that's gonna be a big piece of it. Maybe just as an example, Danone is working in North Africa, in Morocco with lot of small holder farmers. And what they're able to do is engage those farmers in technical support to improve feed management, and, and improve the herd health and that technical support can be really critical in that space in terms of, providing livelihoods, providing productivity gains and kind of creating that virtuous cycle tour of climate action as well. But that's not going to be the same program that again, we'll work in Ohio. So I think thinking through that really specifically as part of the action planning process. Do you have any data, results, anything like that on emissions reduction that you can share that, you know, any wins that you can talk about? So, you know, this, it's still a relatively early program. We're about one year in. And so we've been working on the disclosures and just starting now the action plans. What I'm excited about for this is that it's going to be able to increase that transparency over time. So, you know, companies are going to be able to see how am I progressing? You know, I've, I've reported this methane number this year, and here's what it is next year and wait, what's working and what's not. Agriculture doesn't change on a dime. It takes cycles. There's a kind of agricultural cycles that you have to be working with. And so we need to be in it for the long haul, but having that transparency is going to support kind of a database to delivery of what's working, what's not working, and how do we continue to pivot and, and engage. Looking ahead, are there any cutting edge methane reduction technologies or practices that you can see coming down the line that could completely change the game? Yeah. I that there's a lot of innovation happening in this space, and I think one of the values of the Dairy Methane Action Alliance is also saying, you know, companies are looking for solutions. This is something that we that there's more solutions that are needed. And I'm hoping that will also continue to drive more innovation forward. I am excited about these feed based tools that can be given to cows and can reduce methane emissions in an absolute way every day, right? I think those types of tools can be really powerful. And then I'm also really excited about genetics and breeding. I think we're seeing there's new science coming in of, you know, which cows are going to have higher emissions and which ones will not. And how do we kind of engage in ways that are going to bring those lower emitting cows into the market more and more. And I think that the innovation is unlimited here, and I think there's going to be even more things that come in the pipeline and we'll be following closely. One of the critical things about innovation that we've looked at is how do we make sure that it's going to be, not just the innovation doesn't just get to market, but actually get used. Right. And so I think Dairy Methane Action Alliance is one way that, you know, can kind of say, okay, companies, here's some tools that you could immediately deploy and companies will be ripe to do that. But also there's things like policy actions and, you know, regulatory barriers and unlocking those to really make sure that these solutions can actually get scaled when they're ready. So, I think when we think about innovation, we need to be thinking about both the kind of R and D bit of it and then also the delivery of it. Okay. So not just bovine probiotics, but regulations and incentives and a whole slew of things rolled out at the same time. Yeah, I think, you know, if you can have, a product that's going to the market and at the same time, a farm bill that's incentivizing use of that product. And at the same time, supply chains that are incentivizing use of that product. And, at the same time really good farmer engagement so that farmers feel confident in using product. That's what we need, right? It's that surround sound element, that's going to drive scale of these solutions. And you mentioned earlier knowledge sharing amongst farmers. Is this something, is there like a platform set up by the Dairy Methane Action Alliance or some other way to help farmers help one another? So that's not a formal, you know, thing through the Dairy Methane Action Alliance. It is something that we see companies, you know, supporting and delivering through their programs. And so that's an opportunity where okay, we'll bring together farmers in a key geography to have a farm meeting and talk about what's worked. Sometimes companies are thinking about, okay, how do I bring forward one or two leading farmers in a region who can try out things and then we can leverage them and their farmer network to encourage others to engage as well. And so I think we really are thinking about. That the farmer networks as a key tool, and we can support farmers and designing initiatives that are unique to their own supply chains. And that can be a part again within the context of Dairy Methane Action Alliance of the Dairy Methane Action Plans, right? How do you use that tool where it makes sense. Okay. And what are kind of biggest roadblocks that the farmers and companies are facing when it comes to methane reduction? I think there's unfortunately still quite a few roadblocks. And I think part of what we're trying to do with the Dairy Methane Action Alliance is identify them and unlock them. Some of the things are, really robust measurement technology that can help companies understand the methane challenge. We know the science is still evolving on that kind of capture data from farms or from supply chains and turn it into methane numbers so that you can then say, okay, here's my tailored approaches to reducing methane emissions. And we don't want perfect to be the enemy of good. So we're starting where we are in terms of what tools and models are out there. But we also know there's a need to continue to improve that science, and continue to get better and more kind of concrete numbers so that then we can drive more effective actions. So that's one challenge. I think the second challenge is, financing. You know, these solutions cost money and farmers can't fit foot the bill. There's a lot of things you can think about, and likely we need all of those things, right? But I think figuring out ways that every part of that system can kind of do its piece in delivering financial incentives so that we can address these critical emissions is another key opportunity. and then actually, those are probably the 2 ones we see the most in terms of challenges. Yeah. For people who are listening, particularly those working maybe in food or agriculture, is there anything they can do today to make a tangible difference in reducing methane emissions? Yeah. I mean, I think that just understanding that methane emissions matter is a key thing that the average consumer can do. And I think that, you know, looking at company actions and understanding what are you doing to drive down these emissions? And asking those questions, you know, consumers have a lot of power in this space because, consumer packaged goods companies are listening to the consumer. They want to meet consumer demand. And so I think consumers can show that demand by asking the questions by buying brands that that have engaged on climate in a robust way. And I think that's a really important role they can play. And then also, I think, you know, consumers from a policy perspective should also be thinking about what policies based on my geography, I know you have global listeners, you know, how can I be voting in a way and, and engaging politically in a way that is supporting climate action in agriculture and supporting farmer transitions. So those are some things that I think are really important for the average person to be thinking about. Okay. I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but maybe it's something you haven't thought about, or maybe you have, but I generally, when I'm making coffee, for example, I don't use dairy milk. In fact, I don't use dairy milk at all. I use oat milk and there's a brand of oat milk that I use called Oatly and they say on the carton, it's 45 grams, CO2 per liter of Oatly And that's great. Or maybe it's not. I don't know because I've got, well, I do know, but most people probably don't have any context for that. Is that better than a liter of milk? Is that worse than a liter of dairy milk? You know, without the context, it's hard to know. So. Yeah. Yeah. Should, do you think companies like Danone, Nestle, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, be labeling all of their foods with carbon labels saying exactly how many grams per liter or kilo or whatever it is? It's a great question. I, from my perspective, I think what's really critical is that we're reducing emissions from every product that's on the shelf. And we see that labels can be misconstrued. Labels can be confusing for consumers and they can, they can have a lot of kind of you know, expense to kind of understand and back up and have that verification of whatever is shared. And so I think that that can be one approach that companies can take, but I think what's most important is that we, at the kind of the collective level across companies, they're being really transparent about their actions. They're being transparent about their emissions and people can find it there because I think when we get down to the product, there can be a lot of, you know, wait, what is that? And what does that mean? And the confusion about the, the label. But when you look across a company, you can understand, this is my footprint and here's how it's going down. Right. And so that to me is where you can drive scaled action is at that kind of broader company level. But certainly, you know, the product level is something that we are seeing and it'll be interesting to follow how that continues to evolve. left field question. If you could have any person or character alive or dead. Real or fictional as a spokesperson for dairy methane reduction, who would it be? And why? Oh, wow. That's a really great question. You know, I'm trying to think of, of so the first person who's coming to my mind, Tom is, Leslie Knope from Parks and Recreation. I love Parks and Recreation. So anytime I can have her as a spokesperson, I would probably choose her, but she's so passionate and she can really get a lot of things done. So, I don't know, that might not be the right answer, but that's the first answer that's coming to my mind. If I had longer, I'm sure I'd come up with something even, even better. no worries, no worries. There's no right or wrong answers. Just it's, it's always a nice, question to throw in to see what people come up with. So cool. That's fun we're we're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, Katie, is there any question that I haven't asked that you think I should have asked, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that. You think it's important for people to think about? Well, I think the one thing that we haven't talked about is so far within the Dairy Methane Action Alliance, we have eight companies, 230 billion in sales. There's a global reach, super excited about that action that we've already generated. But also this is just the first step. And so we are really calling on other companies to join in. And so, we want to continue to accelerate action across this industry. And I think you know, really excited to have this conversation with you to talk about that, but, you know, we won't stop until we've gotten to that scaled impact. And so I think making sure that we kind of continue to progress and also have others join in is something that we're really focusing on as well. Great. And if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, Katie, where would you have me direct them? Yeah, sure. You can find us at business. edf. org. And specifically business. edf. org slash DMAA is where you can go to learn more about the Dairy Methane Action Alliance. And yeah, we're eager to engage your listeners there and also happy to connect on LinkedIn. Personally, Katie Anderson is on LinkedIn. You can find me there. Great. And I'll put links to those in the show notes, Katie. So everyone has access to them. Fantastic. Sounds great. Katie, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thanks so much, Tom. It's great to talk to you and have a great rest of your day. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.