That shift, to the democratisation of power or what I would call, citizen utilities is happening in many places and not just in high income OECD countries, also, you know, developing countries that are putting standalone power stations in to supply themselves with energy as well from rooftop solar. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 209 of the Climate Confident podcast, the go to show for best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow this podcast in your podcast app of choice, so you never miss an episode. Before we dive into today's show, a huge thank you to this podcast's incredible supporters. Your backing keeps this podcast going and I truly appreciate each and every one of you. If you'd like to join our community, you can support the show for as little as three euros or dollars a month, which is less than the cost of a cup of coffee. Just click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode, or visit tinyurl. com slash climatepod. Now, in today's show, I'm thrilled to be talking to Dr. Jemma Green from PowerLedger, and in the coming weeks, I'll be talking to Puja Balachander, who's the founder of Upgreen. We'll be talking about commercial properties. Jenny Morgan, we'll be talking about cancel culture. Chris Daugherty, CEO of Joulen, and we'll be talking about energy grids. And Sandhya Sabapathy, who is the Head of Environment and NetZero for Entain. But back to today's show. And as I mentioned, I'm talking to Jemma. Jemma, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. Thanks for having me, Tom. I am a Co Founder and Chairman of Power Ledger. We're a software company and we make software for the electricity sector. We help energy suppliers innovate around new products for their customers that allow consumers to take more control of their energy. And we have a marketplace for trading renewable energy certificates, which are bought and sold by large corporates and generators of solar farms and wind farms. And we've been operating for eight years and we've got projects in Europe, the US and Asia. And I'm based in Zug in Switzerland. And so let's start at the beginning, I guess is a good place. Why? Why did you co found PowerLedger? You know, what was it that made you wake up one morning and think, I know, I think I'll start PowerLedger. Well, that didn't happen. I actually had just had a baby, my first child, six weeks earlier. And I was introduced, I used to work in banking and a former banking colleague of mine introduced me to my fellow co founder of Powerledger, John Bullich, and he has, he's a technologist and had developed applications using blockchain technology, and he was looking for some introductions to people in my network. And actually, I was very reluctant to have the meeting with him because I just had a baby, but I felt compelled for some reason I had said no to a lot of meetings, but this particular one, I actually called up my mother and asked if she could come over and hold my baby while we spoke. So the four of us actually sat in my lounge room together. And I was halfway through my PhD at that moment, and I was designing a solar and battery system for an eco village in Fremantle, and I was a bit stuck trying to find software that would allow the trading of electricity within the eco village. So there was a solar farm in the eco village and a battery, and I wanted people to be able to trade their allocation of energy from those sources with each other. And I couldn't find any software that did that. And John developed applications using blockchain and was very enthusiastically telling me about that. And I said, well, could it do anything in energy, and we started to look together and saw not only could it do what I had hoped in my doctoral research, but also, broader applications in energy in terms of tokenizing energy and derivatives of energy, like carbon credits and renewable energy certificates. Tracking energy, down to each kilowatt hour in terms of time, place. So we got very excited and three months later we set up the company. So yeah, it wasn't, on the radar, let's say to do that. It just was serendipity. And who would typical customers be for Powerledger? Utilities primarily for peer to peer trading and tracking services, because they want to innovate with new products for their customers. And then for the marketplace for trading attribute certificates, which is called Trace X. The users of that marketplace are generators of electricity who have certificates that they want to sell and large corporates that want to buy certificates. So they're the users or customers in that example, that product use case. Okay. And the utilities, how does it work for them? They roll it out in their system. Do they have to be able to talk to all of their smart meters, I guess, to get the generation data and then create, what is it blocks on the block chain? I assume it's a private block chain, create blocks in the block chain. And that way, track and trace all the, as you said, kilowatt hours that are coming in and out of the system. It's a very good multi part question, Tom, that I'll endeavor to answer. But very good questions, by the way and I don't mean that flippantly. So actually smart meters are a prerequisite to use our system, so we can't operate unless there's smart meters. And then in terms of the product, depends what the product is. So if it's peer to peer trading of electricity, then the client, which is the utility, would want to offer peer to peer trading to its own customers. And so using smart meter data, we would be able to measure how much electricity is being exported from houses and businesses that have rooftop solar. And then for those that want to buy and consume that electricity peer to peer, how much they're drawing off the grid at that same moment in time to measure how much electricity that's being traded peer to peer. So within the retailer, the retailer or energy supplier allows its customers to trade peer to peer with each other. And in terms of tracking electricity, which which is another kind of use case for energy suppliers, they may want to provide that service to their customers. So it might be a large corporate that has a lot of shops and it wants to have visibility at each site. How much energy am I using? What type of energy am I using? If I've got on site generation, like rooftop solar. How much of that is contributing to my total energy consumption and what's a gap that I might need to fuel from buying energy from elsewhere? And for that you also do need smart meters as well. And in terms of the retailer. Or the energy supplier, you know, what's important to them will dictate the kind of product that they might want. It might be that they see a real point of difference to attract new customers. Like, for example, our client in Austria, Energy Steiermark, we've jointly developed a peer to peer trading product with them called Energy Communities. And they saw that as a point of difference to attract new customers to their business and both residential customers and commercial and industrial customers are signing up and using the product and they're getting more and more users every week. So that's seen as like something that differentiates them from other competitors within Austria. Okay. And when you say peer to peer trading, so I've got a five kilowatt solar array on my roof right now. And my neighbor, David, across the street doesn't, I don't always use five kilowatts during the day. So there would be excess, which I would be pushing out onto the grid. He's just across the road. So when you say peer to peer, does that mean that I would be able to, if my utility enabled it, I would be able to sell my excess directly to David. And if so, that's not really what's happening, is it? Because I'm pushing it out onto the grid. He's consuming from the grid, but it's not the exact same electrons. It's just, it's going out onto the grid or am I missing something? No, you're not missing something. But the way the accounting system in the grid works is exactly like that. For example, say you buy electricity from a solar farm, like, you know, 100 megawatt solar farm and you have a power purchase agreement. You're not actually buying the electricity that gets generated from that solar farm. What happens is a certain amount gets put into the grid and you're allowed to take out the same amount at the same time. And that is actually the bookkeeping system for the grid. So, you know, an electron is fungible, indistinguishable that it is from one another. So the way the tally is kept is exactly like that. So if you are exporting electricity, David can consume electricity at that point in time as an alternative to the current, prevailing model, which is a feed in tariff model, and I think it's worth just mentioning that for a moment because the feed in tariff model was very successful in some respects, but also extremely problematic in others. And what a feed in tariff is just a guaranteed amount of money that you would get for exporting rooftop solar or other sorts of energy for that matter to the grid. huh. We look back 10 years ago when solar panels were expensive, the feed in tariff, the amount of money that you got was very high, and as the price of solar panels came down, the feed in tariff commensurately came down as well. It was such a successful stimulus that it caused so much rooftop solar to be installed in countries around the world that it actually caused oversupply of energy in parts of the grid. And what that means is you're actually causing congestion. Excessive energy where there is not commensurate demand actually causes congestion, like on the roads. And that is a big problem for managing frequency, and control of the grid balancing supply and demand, and it also can cause the physical infrastructure to wear out faster. Bearing in mind, like infrastructure, like substations cost millions of dollars. And if you don't manage the grid stably. You might reduce the lifespan of something from like 20 years down to 10. And it's a huge cost. And typically what will happen when you've got congestion is they'll start either curtailing the export, which is the kind of situation that we're getting to now, where actually, even though you've invested in the five kilowatts, You might actually be turned off from exporting, so you're not getting any money, like the food and tariff became almost like a victim of its own success because the good can't handle all of that energy or the grid starts upgrading substations to relieve that congestion and that adds cost. And in all the countries around the world that have a lot of variable renewable energy, so variable is like when the sun's shining, when the wind's blowing, you also have high electricity costs because networks have been upgraded to deal with this exact problem. And so ironically, even though you might have a cheap unit cost of like solar the total cost when you add in the network is very high, so you've got very high electricity costs. in in places in the world where you have a high penetration of variable renewable energy. The other issue with this is it's a subsidy and that subsidy cost is smeared across everyone else as well. And that also makes electricity expensive too. And so this model, and this is really the reason why we set up Powerledger in the first place, because we could see the subsidy model, was broken. And you were never going to get high penetrations of renewable energy if it ultimately made electricity more expensive. And the idea of peer to peer trading is a market model that doesn't use subsidies to grow renewables in a way that is really supportive of the grid. So what I mean by that is you would only have a price signal that would encourage you to export if that there was demand nearby to you. If David actually was there needing your energy. Otherwise you'd get a very low price of electricity for your electricity exported, which would discourage you from putting a five kilowatt system in if you weren't consuming it all yourself. Or it might encourage you to put a battery in, or Davida might put a battery in to store that and then use it later in the evening. So the peer to peer price signal encourages these economic decisions to be made around how much energy am I going to install or how much storage am I going to install in a way that actually is like synonymous with a stable grid and a low cost grid. The feed in tariffs here are not subsidies. I would argue because I'm paying 11 cents per kilowatt hour average across three different time periods, but it's average 11 cents per kilowatt hour. I get paid five for what I feed back in. So, I'm not sure I'd call that a subsidy per se, because it's less cost. could still be a subsidy, Tom, because actually if the wholesale price is higher than that and the net, what you're talking about, the difference between, was it 11 and 5 that you just said? Yeah. Yeah, so the difference between that is six cents, but the network cost might be seven, actually. And so you are, you may well be getting a subsidy in that. It doesn't feel like it because you're only thinking about the generation cost of energy, not the total cost of energy. So it could be still be that the government is subsidizing that energy. for that income that you're getting. Okay. And if my energy provider deployed this peer to peer trading mechanism, would I potentially get more than that five cents per kilowatt hour? you could potentially get more because the network might say, oh, there's congestion here. We wanna relieve it. They might reduce the network fee or your neighbor. It would be more dynamically priced based on what the wholesale market is looking like, the price. So the wholesale market price for energy might go very high and you might actually get a much higher price. Equally, you might get a lower price if there's low demand, but that dynamic would actually have households and businesses make different kinds of decisions about the amount of rooftop solar they put in and storage decisions as well. Okay. And I've just ordered a Kia EV3. And the EV3 it has a bidirectional charging port, so it can do vehicle to home, vehicle to grid to whatever. So, in that kind of scenario, could I then pump the excess instead of out to the grid into the car while prices are low? And then reverse it back out of the car onto the grid when prices are high. Yeah, absolutely. You can. And I think this is like the kind of 1st generation of electric vehicles that can do that because up until now You haven't been able to do that and say you decided to bypass the system and put something in that allowed you to do that, you would negate your warranty of your on your vehicle. Correct. What you're really talking about being able to do now is the ideal future state where you can really optimize, your generation and storage assets around the price. And yeah, I mean, that's the holy grail, I would say. So all I need is for my utility to become a customer of yours. Yeah, I mean, we are actually doing some analysis in the market in Ireland. At the moment, I know, I know, but we, I think the European market is quite interesting because of the clean energy package. The different member states have transposed the clean energy package differently. So it kind of makes some markets more attractive than others, but yeah, I think the more innovative forward customer centric retailers, are going to become increasingly interested in this in Europe as the clean energy package gets transposed into local legislation in the member states. Okay, and you were saying you are having some talks with people in Ireland. Yeah, we're actually doing a potential research project there to look at what's worked in Austria to see what might work well in Ireland. To use the learnings from the Austrian market to inform what might be adapted in the Irish context. Okay. And obviously traditionally, utilities have been slow to adopt newer technologies. I want to think just because I mean, I understand where they're coming from. They're, risk averse by nature because they have to be because they're providing. I mean clue is in the name. They're providing a utility. And it's a hugely important utility for people, you know, if you lose electricity, it can be life threatening in some instances. So,they have to be very cautious and risk averse. So, slow to change. So, are they biting your arm off? Are they slow to jump on board? You know, where are they on that spectrum? Well, fortunately, I've still got both of my arms. I'll give a short answer and then a longer answer. So the short answer is it depends. And the longer answer is, in places where you have vertically integrated utilities, they're more predisposed to look at this because they're thinking about the whole system. But in markets that are deregulated, individual actors, may not benefit from like doing something that actually helps the system. And so they're disinclined to do that, unless there's regulation, that's encouraging it. So Europe is a case of that where there, there is a deregulated market. But there's the clean energy package. Another place, which is not deregulated, for example, is India. And that's a place that we're spending quite a lot of time in as well. And I've done a number of projects there, and that's because they also have a different mindset there, which is around like system. Like, we've got to take care of the whole system. For example, India won't export its gas because it needs it to make fertilizer to feed the people, whereas, for example, Australia exported its gas to get the highest price and didn't really think about what that would do to domestic gas prices and what that would do to electricity prices. In Western Australia, where I'm from, They do have a domestic gas policy, but on the East Coast, they didn't do that. And then we had very, very high and volatile electricity prices as a result of this. So I'd say there's a variety of reasons, but you're starting to see kind of like a new breed of energy suppliers that are very customer centric, digital focused. As well, and, you know, you've got to have some sympathy for utilities because for 100 years, they just supplied energy one direction. And now they're being asked to kind of get into this new electrical world, which is around markets and price signals when it's just really about electrical engineering previously. And change doesn't happen quickly. And in a sector like that, where infrastructure changes take decades, these things are not like, instantaneous. So it's worth bearing that in mind, even like the, you know, the solar revolution, you know, that's been going on for like, three decades now, and it's still a relatively small percentage of the total energy generated globally to this day, even though, you know, it might feel differently to people if you just read the news. Actually, if you look at statistics, it's a very small component. In some places, it's more meaningful and material, and that's where you're starting to see the problems with the feed in tariff that we mentioned earlier, and some more experimentation around alternatives. a utility is predominantly made up of electrical engineers. And a lot of these kind of flexibility solutions, non network solutions or like market interventions. And utilities will take some time to figure out what they might want to do. And build out teams and resources go beyond experimenting at individual sites to looking at more wholesale approaches across their business. It's something that takes time. Our strategy is really to focus in the places where there's the most appetite and obtainable market in the near term to prove up the model at scale. And what role do you see for decentralised energy systems in helping the world achieve our global net zero goals? I think there's quite a lot of challenges with the net zero concept. Perhaps I could frame it slightly differently and talk about, like, our energy needs. And we're actually in a state of energy expansion. The word transition is a bit of a misnomer. If you look through history at all types of energy, new types of energy when they got added into, the system, they didn't replace the previous types of energy. They were just an additional source. And I think we're actually consuming more energy than ever before each and every year and renewable energy is needed to help make growing energy demand. The more we can incorporate into the system in a low cost fashion more it will support people living their lives and getting the benefits of energy, which is, you know, raising people's standard of living. But there are no countries in the world that have low amounts of energy and high standard of living. And high cost of energy, people have to make choices between heating and eating. It's profoundly life altering to have overly costly energy. Having said that also, it's profoundly life altering to have an intermittent supply of energy. If you look at South Africa as well, no one would want to live in those circumstances. So having stable and low cost energy is incredibly important. We still have 700 million people that live in poverty globally. That has I think in the past 15 or 20 years has come down from like 1.6 billion people, but those people need electricity. And so the idea that we're going to, transition from fossil fuels to renewables is really not based on reality or need. What our system can do and support is the claims being made about renewable energy where people want to differentiate it and validate is it really renewable or I want to incorporate more local renewable energy rather than sourcing it from other countries, as might be the case in Europe and support local energy autonomy and low cost local energy autonomy. And our system can really support those kinds of efforts as well. So it's really about incorporating more renewable energy into the system without subsidy and in a low cost fashion. Okay, very good. And, with the rise of prosumers, the likes of myself for example, who have my own solar panels, are we looking at a future where everyone could then become their own de facto energy company? Yeah, I think that's happening in many respects. Many households have rooftop solar, electric vehicles, and instead of getting 100% of their energy from their energy supplier are now getting a large amount from their own domestic generation and storage. And so that shift, to the democratisation of power or what I would call, you know, citizen utilities is happening in many places and not just in high income OECD countries, also, developing countries that are putting standalone power stations in to supply themselves with energy as well from rooftop solar. And changing topics for a second, you co authored the book, Empathy and Understanding in Business. How does or does empathy shape innovation, especially in tech heavy industries like blockchain and energy? Yeah. So I wrote the chapter in the book, really talking about a client that we didn't understand well enough. This was about five years ago. And as a result of that, we completed the project with them, but we didn't get the next project along. Another company did. And what we realized was that we were very project focused and we didn't understand sufficiently around project fits into their strategy and enough around what was going on in the market and regulation. And so that really catalyzed us forming like a deeper engagement with clients and having greater understanding and empathy for what they're trying to work on. And if you don't know all of those bits, you know, you may be, foul footed without realizing it in the execution of projects. So I think we take a lot more time to understand those things. And I wrote about that, what happened and what we learned from that. And I was lucky, yeah to co-author the book with Chris Vos, who wrote quite a famous book called Nevis, but The Difference, he's a former FBI hostage negotiator, and he wrote a book about negotiation. And can you share a real world example of where Powerledger's tech made a measurable difference in sustainability or energy equity? Yeah. Well I think that the Austrian example's a great one. energy Stein Mark is one of the larger energy suppliers in Austria. They are very customer centric. They're very innovative and they, they saw a real opportunity from the regulation change in Europe from the clean energy package and really develop the product, which is based on peer to peer trading, really fit for purpose for the Austrian market and initially targeted residential customers, but now they're also onboarding commercial and industrial customers as well, and they are seeing, like, real excitement and attention because customers that have, like, for example, businesses that might have rooftop solar on some of their sites might be able to supply access to themselves and then also any. Yeah, so there's different, like, use cases that is appealing. So some of their sites might not have the space to have rooftop solar so they can't install it, but they can buy it for themselves from other sites. And I think that they're seeing a lot of interest and traction from offering this product. And of course that then makes solar more attractive for those businesses to deploy on their roofs. Yeah, so previously they might go, wait, we just can't supply solar for this site, so we might have to buy it from other sources. Now they might have other sites that they could put rooftop solar in and supply themselves. And then households can you know, trade with those businesses or each other or also give energy, like they could give energy to their school or community group so it can create these local energy community concepts as well and have people take greater control of their energy future. And what do you think is the biggest misconception that people have about blockchain in the energy space? Well, I think you can do almost all of it without blockchain and you know, that may you know, sound funny to hear from a company that's using blockchain technology, but I think, you know, we're not acolytes of blockchain technology. It's a useful tool. And I think it's worth saying that because, there have been some developing applications, not in energy, sometimes maybe even in energy, using blockchain, I think that it's like a cure all for everything, and it's not. And it can do many things that make you want to use it. I would liken it to barcodes in a supermarket. It's not like you go to the supermarket because it's got barcodes. But the fact that it does have them means the stock control is better. When you go through the till, it's faster, there's less mistakes. And I think blockchain's analogous to that. You could go to your corner store and get milk, or you can go to the supermarket, but you don't go, I'm going to the supermarket because of the barcodes. I think having blockchain there means the accounting system works, effectively. It's a rock solid audit trail. It's verifiable it builds trust. And I think, you know, there's a lot of greenwash going on, and you want to be able to have a way to verify claims being made about energy. That you know, builds trust and people can rely upon. And I think that's what it provides. Very good, very good. And let's peer out a little bit in the future. If you could imagine a world where all energy is clean and decentralised, what's one quirky way you'd personally use renewable energy at home? Well, I think that the use case that you're cooking up in your house, Tom, that I think is the ultimate. If you have a number of people on your street and neighborhood doing that then I think you can start to really get to high levels of renewable energy autonomy within a neighborhood, and then you don't need to draw energy from the greater grid, and then you don't need to upgrade substations, transformers, so you can have really lean grid and low cost, local energy. Okay, superb. What do you think are the biggest hurdles holding back wider adoption of technology like your own? Well, energy is different to say the roads at Uber, like Uber was able to really, just do whatever it wanted, regardless of the regulation somewhat, because it could just get on the road and offer this service and it kind of dealt with the regulation afterwards. Energy is different. The access to energy is via energy suppliers, so they're kind of like the gatekeepers of the new electrical world. So unless they're personally interested in doing something or there's regulation that's stimulating it, it's a slower process to get like mass adoption. And as you start to get models at scale that prove things up, it might get the attention of regulators in other places and get them to encourage that. But I think the proving up of those models is a slower process, but I think in a place like India where it's actually, it's a reasonably laborious process to make things happen, but when they do happen, they can happen at scale makes that market very exciting. So I think both Europe and India, I would say it would be great if we can demonstrate local energy autonomy as an alternative model to the sentiment that, there's some like slogans, like, there's no transition without transmission. So, transmission energy is seen as the only way to incorporate more renewables into the system, but that is a very network heavy approach and obviously, transmission companies want to build more network because they get guaranteed returns, but they're like an incumbent. So they have a lot more sway over, talking to politicians and things like that, but I think proving up an alternative model like that at scale, I think could show actually there is transition without as much transmission. Obviously, we do need transmission lines and we may need to upgrade them as well. But maybe instead of spending 50 billion in a particular area, you might only need to do 10 or 15 billion spend if you start looking at local energy markets as well in concert. Okay. And field question, you mentioned local energy autonomy. If you could have any person or character alive or dead, real or fictional as a spokesperson for or a champion for local energy autonomy, who would it be and why? Wow. You've caught me off guard, Tom. Maybe a Bluey. I don't know if you know Bluey. It's an Australian cartoon., And Bluey is a blue heeler. And, It's just very funny, and very relatable. And I think energy is a topic that most people just kind of historically just got their bill and paid it. But now actually, you know, and lots of people have opinions about energy now based on what's in the news. But actually, energy is not like cocoa beans. You can't just store it. And it's not just a matter of changing out solar panels for, gas fired power, because they're different. One is dispatchable. One is variable. And, I think we need to actually talk about things in a relatable way and to understand what's going on to form views and opinions and make investment decisions as well that are wise and sensible. So I think we need a character like that, that actually talks in plain English in a way that is actually quite engaging and charming to get the message across. What does success look like for PowerLedger in the next decade? What kind of legacy do you want to leave? Yeah, I think in terms of Tracex, I might just say a few words. So the Marketplace for Trading Attribute Certificates. One renewable energy certificate represents one megawatt hour of renewable power generated or a carbon credit, whether you like them or not, what it actually is, is one ton of carbon abated. And these are the accounting system for, for measuring renewable, if you want to buy renewable energy, you can just buy plain old energy and then buy a renewable energy certificate and retire it. And then you can legally and validly say, I've consumed renewable energy. So it's an alternative to actually, having renewable energy itself, like on your roof or buying energy like from a solar farm. If you do buy energy from a solar farm, you'll typically buy the energy and the certificates as well. And that's how you're able to say I've got renewable energy. Buying and selling these is actually very opaque. A lot of it happens through brokers. It's very difficult to transact the costs. Like you don't know what the costs are. It's difficult to know where they've come from in terms of like the vintage time type place. And then there's double counting there's buying and selling of things that have been retired. There's a whole lot of issues with that space. What Tracex is a very automated way to buy and sell between the counterparties so they don't have to worry about, Oh, I've paid the money, but I'm not going to get the certificates or I have to wait a long time. It all happens instantly and then the pricing around that is very transparent and then also the underlying projects you can easily distinguish. And I think that this technology can really provide efficiency and transparency to have the market mature. If you think about other markets that are mature, you have you have transparent pricing you have liquidity, and these are all kind of essential preconditions for a mature market. And I think that financial markets they've always been a part of electricity trading, but the kind of secondary and tertiary parts of it in terms of the certificate market, I think is really ripe for change. To answer your question, I think that becoming supported by our platform, becoming more transparent, more liquid and scalable, I think would be a great accomplishment. We're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, Jemma, is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? Well, it's worth having a conversation with your energy supplier and asking them, besides the feed in tariff, how else can I use my energy or sell my energy or are there any energy sharing options for me? How do I know when I'm buying my energy from you, if I'm buying renewable energy, how do you actually tally all of that up? And just, you know, start showing an interest. I think that, cause you know, there's a variety of ways that that's been done and some of them are more bona fide than others. And I think it's, to be a more proactive citizen. And express what you'd like to see with your energy supplier will encourage them to start thinking about more in an innovative customer centric products. Nice. Good idea. Great. Jemma, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Well, the best place would be Power Ledger's website, which is powerledger. io, Indian Ocean. and I'm also on LinkedIn and I post a fair bit there and also on X. Superb. Great. Jemma, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me, Tom. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.