The sun is is there. We can we can catch so much energy from it. But we need to make it happen. We need to deploy fast which we are doing but we also need to make sure we manufacture so we take advantage of that, or look into our energy security Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 219 of the Climate Cotton Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow the podcast in your podcast app f choice so you never miss an episode. Before we get going, a huge thank you to this podcast's, incredible supporters. Your backing keeps this podcast going and I truly appreciate each and every one of you. If you'd like to join our community, you can click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode. It's as little as three euros, which is less than a cost of a cup of coffee, and it'll really be appreciated. Now you know how solar panels usually max out at around 20% efficiency. What if I told you there's a company making panels that can hit 30% and are looking to push even beyond 40% in the future? That's what today's guest Laura Miranda Perez is working on at Oxford pv. Their breakthrough tech uses a material called perovskite to supercharge traditional solar panels, delivering more power, using less land, and helping us get off fossil fuels faster. If you care about scaling green energy, this one's for you. But before we get into that, in the coming weeks, I'm going to be speaking to Sangita Waldron, who's the author of What Your Legacy Be Lisett Luik, who's co-founder, and COO of Arbonics, and we'll be talking about afforestation. Professor Angel Hsu from University of North Carolina and Ciaran Flanagan, who's the global head of Siemens Data Center Solutions. All those are in the upcoming episodes, but back to today, and as I mentioned, my special guest today is Laura. Laura. Welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Hi Tom. Thank you very much for having me here. And yes, of course so my name it's I Laura Miranda and I am a Chief Communications and Sustainability Officer at Oxford PV. I have over 10 years experience in solar and more than 25 in R&D and technology And during the last 10 years since I working at Oxford PV I've been focusing in developing and commercialising this new exciting solar technology which is Perovskite Silicon Tandem solar cells. Okay. So give me a bit of a little bit of background first on yourself, Laura, and then on Oxford PV, and then we can get into the, the solar cells. So about me, I'm a scientist by training. I started my career as a material scientist. I have a PhD in Perovskites which I know we're going to talk about about that name but I was working on this material even before it was known for solar. I was working for a few years academia before I moved to industry where I started looking into a way of using this or a type of these materials for solar technology. Since then I have been holding a number of roles going from research technology transfer, IP strategy management, sustainability and then moving into more corporate roles, ESG corporate communications with marketing government affairs, trying to basically I think I've been moving through my career try to make an impact where I can and now with what the the climate crisis we have ahead, we need to deploy clean energies as quick as possible and we need to change mindset. So I think that's what I want to put my skillset and where my career has led me to Great. And a little bit about Oxford PV So Oxford PV it's a company founded in 2010. It's a spinout from the University of Oxford So our headquarters and R&D are in Oxford. And we have a production line in Germany in Brandenberg close to Berlin So what the company does is taking this new technology which I guess we'll explore more a bit later so I'm not gonna get into the details but it's a new technology for solar that is more efficient than conventional silicon technologies which means that it converts more of the sunlight into electricity. And what we've done since 2014 that we started with the current approach is working in a tandem concept which combines this new technology perovskite with silicone increasing the efficiency of the solar cells And in the UK we have our R&D we have call them world experts developing the next generations of this technology. And in Germany we upscale in area but also in volumes. This is a material which when combined with typical silicon solar cells, as you said, with your technology, it increases the efficiency of the solar panels. Typical solar panels today, if I remember correctly, are about 20% efficient, which sounds horribly low. And with your technology, that jumps up to around 30%. Am I getting the numbers right there? Yes, there are a mix of numbers, but yes it is more or less right. So, the perovskite, it's a semiconductor material that what you have is in a tandem combination. What this means is that you have two cells one on top of the other. And they absorb complementary parts of the solar spectrum. So if you think about the solar spectrum as a rainbow we'll say that the top cell the one that is made with porovskite that contains porovskite absorbs in the blue, while the bottom cells which is the silicone absorbs in the red and by absorbing complimentary parts of the spectrum makes better use of that sunlight. And therefore is more efficient converting it into electricity. In terms of solar panels, it's true that the average panels installed efficiency is around 20, 21%. They exist nowadays other type of solar panels also based on silicon and that can achieve efficiencies on the 24%, higher 24%. That's the limit for the current commercial silicon panel. It can still increase a bit more but it will reach a plateau around 27%. That's the maximum that silicon could go in in a solar panel. With the tandem concept, the starting point is around the top of the silicone now so we are starting in 25% is our first product. We have a roadmap which will achieve 27 by 2027, 30% 2030, and beyond that efficiencies go higher with an upper theoretical limit that could reach 43%. Which can never be achieved with silicone. So it's one way of looking at it is this technology comes in when silicone finishes so it's kind of the end of the line for silicone and then you start looking into tandem just the next generation of solar that will allow this this better use of the sunlight. Okay. Can you explain in very small words or very simple explanation as if I was like five years old, why silicon has that upper limit of what was it, 25, 27%? The efficiency limits in different semiconductor materials are based on the intrinsic properties of those materials. So it is how much of that spectrum can be converted, it depends on internal properties which are different for silicone than for perovskite and for other materials that exist. For example cadmium telluride is also used for solar applications. So there is a combination of those intrinsic properties with other processes that happen inside the material that also limit how much of that sunlight can be converted. For silicone the theoretical limit that could achieve as a cell is 29%. It could go up to that level But some of that when it goes from cell to to upscale to the module some of that is lost during the processes. So that's why the theoretical limit for a module is a bit lower. It's always limited by properties of the semiconductor material used to convert the sunlight into electricity And how does it work as in, you have a layer of silicon, and then on top of that, you have a layer of perovskite. How is it that the perovskite allows the red light through to the silicon and doesn't absorb? I mean, is it transparent to red light or how does the red light get through the perovskite to the silicon underneath? It doesn't get absorbed, and converted. The way you put it's it's kind of that that's the right thing. Is we could talk in a very simple way, It's transparent to that. It won't convert that part of the spectrum. So when you get your your solar spectrum hitting your solar cell and you have your two layers, in the moment it goes through the first layer which is the perovskite that part, that blue part of the of the spec will the spectrum sorry will get absorbed, letting the rest go through and then it will be absorbed on that. This is based on what is called the band gap of the material. So each material has a different band gap and depending on the value of that band gap it will absorb different parts of the spectrum. Silicon and perovskite have different band gaps and therefore they absorb at different parts of the spectrum Okay. Fair enough. Let's take a step back and look at kind of a broader picture now in terms of the whole energy transition that we're going through globally. We're seeing the International Energy Agency has for several years now said that solar is now in most of the world, the cheapest form of energy available. And it is being rolled out in record numbers. What do you think is the largest bottleneck still holding it back, even from going faster? Is it price? Is it we fear change? Is it regulations? Is it all of the above? I'm gonna go with all of the all of the above but it's a combination of factors The energy transition which is what what needs to happen comes from many changes. We need to see energy in a different way. We need to understand the way we use energy in a different way. We need to have different regulations. So we are coming from a centralised source of energy where we depend on fossil fuels and they in specific locations and also the sources. You cannot move the sources somewhere else, to a system in which your sources of energy can be completely decentralised It can be in your house. It can be in your car it can be even in your backpack. They will generate different amounts of energy but that's how it's happening. You can have a solar farm obviously there will be central points of big big generating and areas for solar large or big energy generation but still it will be localised. It'll be in a specific area. So we are moving from that, from centralised system to decentralised that is highly dependent on grid connections which we are not ready. We need to get ready and and that has to happen all at the same time. So we have grid connections we have also sources of energy that are variable. So when you talk about fossil fuels you can get your energy your electricity whenever you need it at any time because it doesn't depend in other external factors. When we talk about renewables, solar, you have wind, geothermal, many many many sources some and more that they will be discovered cos that's that's how we are as as human beings. They are depending on external sources. So you have sunlight you need to have the sunlight to generate energy, you need to have wind to generate energy you have to and so goes the the list. So you need to have proper grid connections, proper battery storage systems that store the the electricity and the energy when you're not using it. And you need it later in the day, or in a day that there's less wind. And we need ask people to get used to this different way of thinking. It's why am I gonna install a solar panel in my house when I'm paying for them Well because you are paying for them but at some point you'll own them So your source of an energy will be that it has a return of investment. We have to learn to get used to that. We're not So it's a it's a combination of of all of these together with new regulations, like just said the political landscape is based around fossil fuels. So we need to get used to it and we need to do it in a way that it pushes acceleration of the energy transition because we need to meet climate targets It's that's why we are doing this Aside of running out of of resources we need to fix the the main issue we are having and we have to do all of this at the same time in a very short period, relatively short because otherwise we're not gonna meet those targets. So, it's complex, it's exciting. And it's really good to get to see this happening. At least that's my perspective working in a technology that can accelerate this. But we are living a moment that is gonna means a change for the world. It's just in 10 years we'll see we will look around and everything will look different hopefully, yeah, fingers crossed But I I'm gonna keep my hope that that is what it's gonna happen But it has to happen because it's happening already. There is still you know complaints around for example you don't want the solar farm close to your area because it's destroying the landscape and, but It's gonna be integrated is we we can see now integrated in buildings. We can talk about Agri PV combined with agriculture. It'll integrate with the bio areas of the regions where it needs to be installed. It's something that we're going to see changing We are going to see buildings with glass that generate energy, and and it might not be as efficient as a panel that is on the rooftop but everything counts. And we're gonna see the world changing And that's why what we do it's so important because we can make all of that more efficient Yeah. And one of the arguments you sometimes hear against solar is that it's competing for land use. Now that's obviously a rubbish argument when you compare the amount of land that's used for solar versus the amount of land that's used for golf clubs, for example, there's far more land used for golf clubs than there is for, for solar. But as you, as you rightly point out, with the likes of agrivoltaics, you can combine agriculture, with solar and get a dual income, while increasing biodiversity as well. Do you think the fact that your solar panels, the tandem solar panels are more efficient, is that also a good argument because they're, they're using less land to generate the same amount of electricity?, Yes of course. That's one of the key arguments. You can use less land to generate the same amount of electricity, or you can use the same land but generate more power. It depends where the preferences are. It's key for space limited applications. You think about there is a space. If you can use it more efficiently, it's better. So the main point of this higher efficiency, higher power generation also is that it decreases the cost of the electricity. There is now comparison. It's usually we go to look how much it is a panel, you know, what's the cost per watt generated and that's the constant conversation, but how much it is. But that's not your product. Your product is not the panel. Your product is the electricity that is generated. So if the electricity is cheaper, it's worth it because the panel is part of a bigger system that is generating that electricity and having higher efficiency would does is generate cheaper electricity. So there is an argument for cost of electricity, but also for land use like you say is is the conversation. We will get used to this because it doesn't need that much land like you were saying you compare with other uses it doesn't need that much but it still there's a concern there so you can use less and generate the same It could be a a preferred option Okay. And I'm interested that you brought up cost because I'm curious what's the price differential between a standard solar panel and one of your tandem solar panels? Well at the moment the cost is so variable around the world that it's very difficult to compare with which one because we have these panels coming from China where they have mastered the economy of scale. They've seen it. They've been working on this for many years and they can build huge factories short periods of time So that has decreased the cost. I think one of the last announcements was 6 cents per Watt in one of the conventional, It's not the higher efficient but conventional silicon panels that's something I'm seeing It's the cheapest It's never gone. You compare the same in a European or Western made panel and the cost increases. Our technology without giving you the the details of the numbers, it is going to increase a bit the cost up to a point because it also depends on how much energy generated. We are talking about cost per watt, so it's gonna be relative on how many watts can you deliver with that technology. But even in the with a gap assuming that there is a gap with technology that could be more costly in the initial price still electricity will be cheaper So assuming that you will still have a cheaper electricity so, I think it is worth it. You pay less for the electricity you get. We're seeing a lot of geopolitical tensions around the world now, the Russian invasion of Ukraine being one of the main ones that's impacting the energy scene. How do you see solar's role in energy independence and security evolving? I mean solar is coming back to this reduced independencies from fossil fuels By deploying more solar we are reducing those dependencies because it's completely decentralised but we need to also make sure we have a diversified source of solar globally. We have to avoid the we are depending on these fossil fuels from these regions And now we are going to depend on having new solar panels from other regions because um we are not able to manufacture them. So we just need to think about how we can diversify this without getting into this because the geopolitics at the moment are complex, and are getting even more complex. We are going to see a lot of changes coming. I like to see or think about this climate doesn't understand of politics You know we we need to make sure we deploy. We. Need to make sure that we diversify to avoid those dependencies. And that diversification needs to come from fast deployment from the sources we have now but also looking into how can we manufacture more from the regions that don't have that capacity at the moment. And a way of doing that is using innovative solutions. What we have for example now this technology is something that can compete in terms of manufacturing. It's a new technology It hasn't been made at scale. You are not competing with mainstream silicone. It's something new that can increase that competitiveness can strengthen resilience and the energy security of Europe in this case or any geography that wants to go ahead with the technology and and we will be open to work with anybody that wants to to work with this technology because we need to make it mainstream. That's our mission is to make it happen So, this could be a way of making it. It's good you mentioned Europe because the EU has said they want, or we want solar to dominate power generation by 2030. Are we on track for that? And if not, what needs to change to make that real? We have to separate between deployment and manufacturing so Europe has been deploying faster, but last year for example there was a decrease in the expectations so it was kind of exponential increase on how much Europe is deploying. Last year there was a a decrease because there is a lack of we were talking before about the regulations I think the the political landscape, the regulation framework needs to give more confidence to investors for a solar industry that can can deploy faster and allow those investments to happen. That's on the deployment side. Still I think we can meet in Europe those targets on solar power generation If we only look at deployment But the other side is the manufacturing. Is Europe on track to meet their manufacturing goals or targets? And we're not. We're not because we don't have a framework that is supporting that confidence. We see interest. And that's good for us because we see interest and and even more in in this technology there is an interest there is an an interest from public and private funding sources. But there is a hole because if this situation is is dynamic, it doesn't inspire the confidence of creating something that is stable that will allow investors to say just go ahead and and we'll support this manufacturing. So we need that. That's what we were discussing I think at the beginning Tom is we need all of that not just for the the transition but even for solar. Solar is at the core of the energy transition. Is at the center. The sun is is there. We can we can catch so much energy from it. But we need to make it happen. We need to deploy fast which we are doing but we also need to make sure we manufacture so we take advantage of that, or look into our energy security And if, let's say, things go really well for you guys, if your perovskite on silicon cells were adopted worldwide, what kind of emissions reductions do you think we're talking about? If we talk about linear which is never linear but if you think about our first product will produce at least 20% more power than conventional silicone it will be 20% reduction, just from that linear approach. Obviously it also depends on how do you manufacture, how do you make your panel So we have some estimations that our technology will be at least 7% emitting less in in the manufacturing process than than the conventional one. The more efficient it gets the more is reduced. It's not linear but we can expect at least starting by 20% less emissions. by That is comparing with already clean sources of energy Yeah. It's not about that. It's about if you because we never compare with fossil fuels because it's obvious that of course the emissions will be lower. So we try to compare with something that makes more sense But in reality what we need to do is compare with fossil fuels. The reductions are well like with solar or energy any renewable because in the moment you have emissions during the manufacturing. In the moment those panels are installed is clean energy without farther emissions. The more solar gets deployed the more renewables are deployed You can run those factories with clean energy which will lead to a net or zero emissions manufacturing processes. So that what is to be expected Yeah Yeah, and you guys announced recently your first commercial deal in the US. What's the feedback from utilities? Are they excited or skeptical or just waiting for someone else to jump in first? Yeah we we shipped to a, it was a utilities, a utilities customer. And that was a very interesting process for us because when we started working on on the technology when you think about the type of product you have space limited As we were discussing we thought the first interest was going to be coming more from a residential or C&I market. But it hasn't been like that. We have a lot of interest from utilities or customers in the utilities market. They wanna try it first. They wanna see how the technology works. They want to to work with us to get those panels first. Having first access to them. Install them see how they operate and it's it's fantastic to see all of that interest because at the end of the day what they are working also is on the same premises and that we are saying is the cost of of the electricity generated that is what what makes it worthwhile. We have a lot of interest for from all the markets all the areas and at the moment we are working with the utilities customer that come kind of first come first served because we don't have enough volume to do everything as as I would like, we would like. We have interest now also in the residential market and also what we call the specialty market, which is anything that is not mainstream. So you think about these technologies not just the power per area but the power per weight. So we talk about automotive, we talk about space, we talk about high altitude platform systems, transport, anything that you can install a technology a solar system that is more efficient that also can deliver more power per weight. It will impact what It can happen. So it's a full integration. That's the way we are working with our technology. We know it can make an impact not just on utilities not just residential but also any other application where higher power will have an impact. And I honestly I don't see any application that that won't be a thing. Fantastic. What about things like, longevity, and recyclability? How does perovskite solar compare to traditional solar panels? We've been answering this question I think for the 10 years we've been working on the technology. So starting with recyclability we working with third parties we have got a lot of internal work understanding how it behaves. Is it different? Do we need to do something about it? And last year last couple of years we were working with third parties and the tandem modules can be recycled using exactly the same processes that exist industry. So So there is nothing extra to build with them regardless of that extra perovskite cell. It can be taken end of life same routes than mainstream silicon panels. Now we are also working in improving this not because of the technology but because we think it's the way to go. Solar should be as circular as possible. As recyclable as possible so we want to increase the percentage of materials that you can recover at the end of life and potentially reuse them. Or if it's not a a solar application at least something on the Cleantech space. So you have a circular approach that is based on clean systems. There were some concerns about that but we have tested sample, analyse our modules and they come with the same classification as mainstream ones and they can be treated in the same way, so the there no concern at all on that. Not that we are gonna stop working it, but at least the first set of results are very positive. And in terms of longevity of course, it's a new technology. So we make a separation between application. At the moment what we are doing we are meeting any requirements from our customers. So anything that they require from us for the technology that's what we are meeting. So there hasn't been any concerns around the longevity of the technology. Each application requires has different requirements in terms of how reliable it needs to be. And that's the way we are operating. For for each application We need to look into what is required and then amend, work on it and develop in that sense. The way we work at Oxford PV is we work in efficiency at the same time that we work in stability. So we don't just beat world records because its efficiency is highest. We work in increasing the efficiency at the same time that we increase the the stability of those new generations to make sure we have a product that is reliable and meets customer expectations Obviously, you mentioned that you're needing to scale up production to meet the demand, which is a nice position to be in. But what are the biggest hurdles in moving from the lab to mass deployment? The. Challenges you have to go from small labs scale to mass production, we have already gone through them with our factory in Germany. If at this point we can't build a factory we know how to do it because we went through it. Now, we have the challenges to do that when you move from a very small area cell done in a lab that doesn't look now like it look a few years ago. Two lets say pilot line manufacturing tools that are equivalent to what we'll call a production tool. It's it's not the same but it has the same specifications that you can design. So one of the good things of this technologies it's compatible with existing manufacturing processes. So we didn't need to develop anything new to make a product. Still you need to tune it. You need to understand it. You need to learn. Even with an existing process how do you tune it to meet what a product should have. What a operating line should do in terms of throughput for example this has been a lot of learning into upscaling from a small area to large area in terms of how do you control those processes. What are the key parameters of existing processes? And that's what we've been doing for the last, well we bought the our factory in Germany, it was 2016. So since then that's what we have been doing. And now we do have a very good understanding so we could do the jump into mass scale production with a very good view of what needs to be done and what tools do we need. Okay. And why, why Germany, why not beside yourselves there in Oxford or in France or in Norway or in Spain here, or, you know, why, why Germany in particular? Spain would have been nice No, we look everywhere At at the time we were just looking into a site that could meet our needs in terms of a space obviously cost, support, local support and we were looking everywhere around to see we look in the uk and our COO at the time was German so obviously Germany was was a a place to look at But it wasn't just because of that. It's because there was an existing solar factory there For Bosch. They have equipment, they have infrastructure So it's not that it was perfect we had a lot to do there but there was a a very good starting point and that came together with strong local support from the region So it was a combination of the right place, right size, level of support. So that's how we made the decision. It wasn't location driven. The other site factors help us taking the decision. Okay. And a lot of people think of solar as rooftop panels or massive solar farms from utilities. What would be, in your opinion, the most unexpected application of your technology that you've come across? I'm not sure because solar is integrated everywhere so we are gonna see it That's that's a bit why I I'm not sure if it will be unexpected or more the opportunity with the technologies that you can make more out of it rather than because it's a different technology you can have different applications. It's more you have a a system that can give you most outta the applications in which you are using it So for example if you think about EV cars you can extend the autonomous range. If you think about this high altitude platform systems you can fly to higher latitudes with better monitoring for scientific or environmental applications better connectivity with remote areas. Satellite space you can reduce the production cost and the launch which is one of the key factors in this in that market. Wherever you use it, it will have an impact because you get more out it with the tandem technology One thing we haven't discussed because that's not something we are doing now but the future will see perovskite only technology so you won't need the tandem with the silicone You can have a tandem with two perovskite cells, or even three perovskite cells which which will change completely because that could be a a different type. It is a thin film. It could be using different ways, different applications those type of technologies exist. This is not new but efficiency that you can achieve will be much higher and and that will allow us to see it in applications. I dunno. Even in water bottles if you want to or in thermos to keep the liquid inside hot so we'll see but at the moment it opens it makes you rethink how to use solar because you can make out more out of it so you can look in different ways of using it Oh, fascinating. And what's one misconception about solar energy that drives you crazy and you wish people would stop repeating? I have two. One is that when it's cloudy, solar energy doesn't work because it does. And yes efficiency might decrease but still you get enough to power what you need to power So that's one of them and that comes because being living in the uk you get cloudy days and there's a misconception around here you know it's about because in the UK won't work, well it will. And the other one and we discuss it already is this land use, but is because is a question of perception, is a question of understanding of how much land do you really need to deliver the power that is is required Well I have another one that Okay. sorry I just it's because there's a bit of discussion around and maybe this is just within industry or people that knows the industry but if you keep deploying solar, by 2030, 2050 when those solar panels stop working the amount of waste, it will be really high and you need to manage. Which is true. But it is nothing compared with the waste you get from your plants that are using fossil fuels. Common waste so it's all perspective. Yes there are going to be a lot of solar panels that will have to be recommissioned, reuse recommission recycle, but that is what we need to work towards, but it is not because is a huge source of waste, it is because we need to think about circularity whatever we do. We need to change the mindset Fair enough. Fair enough. If you had unlimited research and development funding for one futuristic solar related project, what would you build? One of our colleagues this was many years ago but he told me imagine we could have clouds made of perovskite that that they are generating energy I'm not sure if this is something that even can be done because of usually we're talking about connections etc But could we have some way of know outsourcing that energy generation to externally One other thing that I thought was and I really like it's not new now I've read that somebody's looking into it but it's the moon solar panels because obviously sun reflects in the moon and then you can still get some sunlight there. I don't know how if that can ever work but you know The world is changing. We may not see it but there are big things that are going to happen and we are going to see some of them So it's an exciting time Yeah. China has announced that they're going to build a three gorges dam solar plant in space. and the three gorges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The three gorges generates around 20 gigawatts. So if they had a 20 gigawatt solar power plant in space, that would be pretty impressive. Obviously getting it to space is one problem, but then getting the energy from space back down to earth is the next one. They said they're going to put it in geostationary orbit. So be at 36,000 km. So that's a very long power line or they're using microwaves, I guess Yes yes It's like a it's like a it's like a very long very big balloon floating And with the So so yeah it's it's not a cloud but it's similar It's we we're gonna start looking at ways of of making things different it's let's see I mean I would love to see that. I dunno how it is going to work, but I would love to see it. Likewise, likewise. A left field question for you, Laura. If you could have any person or character alive or dead, or fictional as a spokesperson for perovskite solar or a champion for perovskite Solar, who would it be and why? Wow, so many. I can go from fantasy to, to Yeah. to real, characters, but I mean, thinking very fast. And it's gonna sound like a cliche, but it's not. I, I think I would love to get Michelle Obama working for us, and being a spokesperson, because read her book. It's not because who she is, or the role she's playing, and even I, I, it's not that I'm completely updated on, on, it's not that I'm fan but the way she, talks, the enthusiasm and and her way of looking at things, I think it would be a very good advocate for a new technology because what we need to do is, derisking in it is we are very risk adverse in general, and we need somebody that can derisk it, that can, can support it and say, well, yes, you have to take a risk, but you know, we know enough now to know that it will work and it's the future of solar, so we need somebody that can have that, that enthusiasm to help us driving the message. Fantastic. Great. Okay, Laura, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I did not ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? No, I think we covered quite a lot. I cannot think about anything else. Okay, okay, fantastic. In that case, Laura, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast, where would you have me direct them? So they can, well, there are two ways they can go through our website, which is 3w Oxford PV dot Oxford PV dot com. We have also LinkedIn social media site they want to reach out to me directly. Also, they can do it through my LinkedIn. They can contact me there. Send me a message Sure, I'll put those links in the show notes as well, so everyone will have to them. Fantastic. Okay, Laura, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thank you Tom. It was lovely. Thank you. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.