our climate legacy starts much earlier as young as the age of 14, when we are old enough to make informed decisions and we have purchasing power. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 223 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow this podcast in your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. Before we get going, a huge thank you to this podcast's incredible supporters, Jerry Sweeney, Andreas Werner, Steven Carroll, and Roger Arnold. Your backing helps me keep this podcast going and I truly appreciate each and every one of you. If you're not a supporter and you'd like to join our community, you can support the show for as little as three euros or dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee, And it really helps me get these episodes out every single week. On the podcast today we're joined by someone who spent years turning the climate crisis into stories that stick, stories that make people care enough to act. Sangeeta Waldron has spoken to 36 voices from every corner of the climate movement, from indigenous leaders to scientists weaving their insights into a narrative that demands attention. She believes our legacy isn't just what we leave behind, it's what we do right now. And she's here to show us how simple shifts in our lives and work can create a ripple effect for good. But before we get into that, in the coming weeks, I'll be talking to Ciaran Flanagan, Global Head of Siemens Data Center Solutions, Stuart Thompson, president of ABB Electrification Services, Frank McGuire, VP Insights Strategy and Sustainability for ShareThrough and Kanika Chandaria, Climate Lead from Agreena. Now back to today's episode, and as I mentioned, my special guest on the show today is Sangeeta. Sangeeta, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Yes, thanks for having me, Tom. So I'm Sangeeta Waldron. I'm a communications professional. Been in my industry for a very long time. Won't say how long, 'cause I'll they're like a fossil. And I'm the author of What Will Your Legacy Be? And it's my third book, which came out January this year, and I'm very pleased to say when the book came out, it was already in reprint. Wow. Fantastic. That's great news. Before we get to that. Hmm. A bit of a backstory. Tell us a little bit about your origins. You know, why did you come to write this book? How did you get interested in this space? It is the Climate Confident Podcast. What's your interest in climate? Gimme all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I have always been interested in the climate and I can honestly say as young as 10 I was aware of nature, the planet, I wanted to do something, I remember seeing an ad in the newspaper where Greenpeace was looking for young reporters. So I wrote away, joined and I thought I was living in inner city London, but I thought at that age I'll be writing about whales, and sealife. So I wasn't a very good reporter. I already had that, purpose I would say. And then when I was 17 we were living now in India and I had the privilege of living in the lower ranges of the Himalayas and nature was very much part of my life. It was. Like another room in the house because you could look out onto the hills. You would walk out your front door and you would walk into beautiful walks, forest walks. So nature had a very special place for me, and I always do say nature saved me because at that time I found living in India very hard and it was a great place for my wellbeing. But also at the same time, India, those days. Not talking about now, but those days, which was about what, 20, 30 odd years ago. It was going through very harsh climate challenges, and intense heat at that time, and forest fires would happen. And where we were living at that time, they only had one fire engine, bit like Trumpton, and would see it coming down the the mountain, and somebody would be ringing that bell. And because you're living in the hills, that fire engine couldn't get all the way down. So it was a human chain of buckets to put the fire out. And what you would see would be the consequences of that. Not just the fires destroying the forest, but then some of that wildlife coming into the town and the neighborhoods. And some more of those. I would say kind of vicious monkeys monkeys that, you know, are, you know, they wanna have a fight with you. So you kind of saw that dynamic happening where neighborhoods were changing because of the wildlife coming in. So that was my first sort of real understanding about climate and nature and how important it is for us. And when I came back to the United Kingdom, I wanted to still work in that kind of space. And I've always made a conscious effort of having the planet at the forefront of everything I do. And so quickly, fast forwarding, why did I write this book? wrote this book because I wanted to help people understand the climate issue. Lots of people always don't feel engaged with it or there's a disconnect, and I wanted all age groups, all people from around the world to understand the one thing that they can do because we can all do something. And even if that one thing might seem very personal to you, you are still making a difference. And that's why I wrote the book because Mother Nature needs us. Okay, good. And your book asks the question, what will your legacy be? So let me flip that to you, what do you want your legacy to be in the climate space? I want it to be that I reach as many people as possible. And, all types of people, even the climate deniers, to know that climate change does exist. It's actually the climate crisis now, and that we can all do something. We can all make a shift or make a change in our habits that will have an impact. And what kind of changes do you. Recommend. It can be as simple and as easy as we want them to be. First of all, we all need to be informed. We need to know where we're getting our news from, what we're reading. Is it authentic news, first of all? And then to talk about it. Talk about the climate conversation, create the climate conversation with our friends, family, colleagues in a respectful way. The more we talk about it, the more action we're actually doing. It can be simple things from when you are brushing your teeth in the morning, don't let the tap run because water is precious. Knowing what does seasonal fruit and vegetables mean to us? Because we've lost that association. We think strawberries are throughout the year, they're not. Strawberries are a summer fruit. Potatoes and carrots we find in the autumn winter months So we need to reestablish our relationship with food. It doesn't mean, you know, you are in rope sandals and you, you become vegan. That's not what the, you know, I'm saying, or, or really the climate movement is saying to people. It's just saying, be informed. Be conscious. And that's what I think people need to start discovering that for themselves. Okay. And where do you fall on the balance between kind of personal responsibility versus systemic change that we need to make to fight climate change? It's both, both go hand in hand. You can't do one without the other. Unless we change, we are not gonna have wider systemic change that we need. It does start with us. It really does. And you know, the climate conversation permeates everything. It is about politics. It is about housing, it is about food, it is about voting. It is about what we are reading. It is about education, and it is about war because now we're seeing the impacts of war on climate. So. It is everything. It doesn't stand alone. And we'll, we'll be deceiving ourselves if we think that is the case. And for the book you spoke to 36 global voices from scientists to indigenous leaders to artists. And what do you think was the most surprising or emotional moment that stayed with you after these interviews? I think that's a really good question, and I think it was halfway through writing the book, I realised that when we think about legacy, we often think legacy starts when we reach our later years, when we become wiser, when we want to think about what kind of footprint we're going to leave behind. And that generally starts when we're reaching our fifties, sixties, and later years. What I learned while writing the book is actually our climate legacy starts much earlier as young as the age of 14, when we are old enough to make informed decisions and we have purchasing power. Because that is wrapped up in our climate legacy. So legacy isn't something that we can just think about as we get older. It's now very much part of the next generation, as young as 14. Okay. And you've said climate change is a communications issue. Can you unpack that a little? What are we getting wrong in how we talk about it? Oh, where do I start? It is a big communications issue and just look, we just have to look at what's happening in America. They are eroding climate change, climate crisis from their framework and from their policies. So there it's actually a erasing the ability to communicate and talk about the climate. I think that shows how clearly climate is a communications issue and challenge. And Catherine Hayhoe, one of the best known scientists. She says, the most powerful thing we can do as ordinary people is to talk about the climate crisis. The more we talk about it, the more we will raise awareness. The more we will inform people. We will create change, and the much loved Sir David Attenborough has called the Climate Conversation a communications issue. It is how we communicate and climate deniers are very good at shutting down that conversation. Our challenge is to keep talking about it and not be silenced. And do you think people need to feel climate grief to take action or can hope and optimism work just as well or even better? Oh, even better. I mean, even better because yes, I mean we can all feel overwhelmed and then we think, what's the point? And we give up to that despair. Actually one of the scientists in the book, we explore climate grief because scientists are seeing the data all the time. They could just say, what's the point? Let's give up, but, they're full of hope and belief. The solutions are there. While we can't change the past, no one can go back and change the past, but we can certainly make things better. Improve the future for the next generation. So optimism, and don't, we like to be surrounded by optimistic people? I'm not talking about naive, optimistic people because that's when change can happen. Hmm. Yeah, no, it's true. And that, I mean, that's why I started this podcast and that's why I put out that newsletter every two weeks. The Future Proof free newsletter that I put out every two weeks. It's because I want to be highlighting the good news stories in the space to give people hope, hopefully, maybe give them ideas and ways that they can work when they see what other people are doing as well. So, yeah, no, a hundred percent agree. I just wanna say I love your newsletter. I'm an avid reader, so, if you're not reading it, read it. Thank you, thank you. We've seen PR and advertising agencies called out for fueling greenwashing, and given your background, what responsibility do you think communicators and brands have in this climate movement? Enormous. Enormous responsibility. And what are seeing, I would say since the pandemic, which is now five years ago, believe it or not, that there is this now awakening within the marketing and the advertising and the media sector as a whole, where marketeers want to make a difference. They realise that they can make a difference, and it's important to be authentic. And that's so important because when we're authentic with our communications, what a brand is doing, then there is less chances of there being some terrible PR crisis. And when we are authentic with our communications and our brands and what the brand is doing and how the brand is operating, it has a better connection with the end consumer. Consumers too want better from brands. They too want better from businesses. And that is what the pandemic did show us. While we were all sat at home, we were looking at what brands and companies were doing. And we wanted better from them. And during the pandemic we saw more and more research come out about corporate social responsibility, and it was showing that consumers, while we're sat at home, we were actually voting with our wallet. We were spending money when we felt aligned with the brand and we felt aligned that that brand was doing good. And I'll just say this one other thing. When brands are authentic and they're operating, from a, a place of just doing better, doing better by the planet, doing better by the communities they're working and operating in, you attract talent. You attract people who want to be part of your movement. It's a win-win. And for PR and advertising agencies, what are the chances that they might be taken in by the greenwashing that some of their clients might be pushing? Oh, big time. But that's why PR agencies need to be asking the right questions, doing the research, and not being, I think now is the time to be bold. You know, we have to step up. We have to be asking those questions. We need to be looking at the client's supply chain. How is it doing business? Does it have diversity and inclusion? Because, you might think these things are not important or it doesn't matter, but they do because if they are going to make a mistake, by association your are part of it. And there's a section in your book about how even well-meaning campaigns can end up being tokenistic. You know what's, what's a litmus test for real impact versus eco fluff? Yeah. Eco fluff. I like that. I think when a brand, or a business has really baked in their corporate social responsibility strategy into the business strategy, then it's not fluff. Then it's authentic, then you are holistic. You are working from top down, bottom up, sideways. It has to be baked into the business strategy. And then the proof is the way that business then does business, you know, everything is joined up. Everyone understands what the CSR commitments are. Everyone understands who are they partnering with, who the supply chain is. You know, you can actually see how clean that relationship is. And what role does then media play, particularly digital and social in helping or hurting the climate conversation today? Enormous. It has enormous power. We can see we are living in an age of misinformation, disinformation. It's so important for us to know what we're reading, check what we're reading first of all, and the media plays an enormous role. We have found there are some media companies that are owned by fossil fuel companies and therefore have a ulterior motive in what they're reporting and how they report. So it's up to us to be wise and that's why it comes back to our own accountability. Fact check everything. And you know, now climate journalists are reporting on stories that are as equally dangerous as reporting from war zones. And there's lots of journalists now really investigating into stories, what's happening. So there is a lot of good stuff out there. There's also, at the same time, lots of fake stuff out there and we, we need to just know what we are reading. Lots of vested interests More than you and I can imagine. with lots of money. Lots of money swashing around. Yes, we know lots of we've had lots of elections last year. And lots of those elections or candidates their campaigns were funded by fossil fuel companies, by big corporates with vested interests and vested interest, not for local communities per se, but they have their own agenda. And you also mentioned that indigenous knowledge often holds solutions. Science is only beginning to grasp. So could you share one example from your interviews that really brought this home? Yeah, I mean. indigenous communities around the world have been banging that drum since the eighties, if not before, about we need to be climate aware, we need to be aware of our relationship with our local ecosystems, but we've been very deaf to what they've been trying to tell us. And I spoke to a NASA scientist in the book, and science now have all the information. It's missing pieces of that puzzle. And what they have found is indigenous communities that have been living in that area or on that land for generations and generations and generations, have that missing piece of the puzzle. So now science is working with indigenous communities to build that picture. And you know, some of the things that indigenous communities have been telling us. And we think, oh, is that really true? Can that be possible? Is that a little bit woo woo? But actually now science is proving how accurate and how factual that knowledge is. It's extraordinary. Mm. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I guess it is and it isn't. I mean, if they have been living on that land for generations and generations and generations, they've had to pick up that knowledge. I mean, if we look at the Maoris or the Aborigines in Australia, they've been there for 80,000 years in in many cases. So yeah, if they haven't learned something by now. That's the thing. But I also spoke to a indigenous leader from the Amazon, and what you find though, what you do find in these big sort of summits and events, the indigenous voices are discredited or they're not respected and they're not given the same value as an educated voice or a voice from the west. So we need to change that conversation, and we need to change that thinking, because a lot of the times they're much wiser, and have far more to say than any of us, but we haven't given them their due respect. And we are seeing as well, globally now, as we've alluded to already, the far right is on the rise and so is climate denial. How do we break through the tribalism and engage people who think that the climate crisis is a hoax? Sorry, that's a really good question. I think it comes back to the same thing. Just keep talking about it. And what you do find is climate deniers like to come and find you. They like to challenge you. And if you are able to respectfully speak to them, give them the facts, you actually find a lot of the time they don't have a comeback.'cause if you ask them, do you believe in gravity? They say yes. Then why don't you believe in the, the science of climate? And when you explain what that means, they don't really have a comeback. A lot of the time, we, as a, and I, I say myself as within the green movement, sometimes we isolate ourselves. We don't want to take on that challenge of speaking to climate deniers, but I think sometimes we, we have to, otherwise we're not going to move the needle. It comes back to what we're reading. Fact check everything. Keep having those respectful conversations you know, we are dealing with fact not fiction and science. We're also dealing with polarisation though. Yeah, we are. And that's the very sad thing about it. But what we also find is the climate deniers are also funded by a lot of these lobby groups, these big oil lobby groups that have lots of money to be strategic and to try and eradicate these standing points and erase science. So we need to be switched on. We need to see the bigger picture. We need to kind of dig, and understand what's going on. Okay. And. You've called hope a natural resource. Do you worry it's being depleted too fast, or do you still see reservoirs of it, in the climate community? Well, you know, that's really interesting. It's such an interesting question. At the start of January, 2025, people were bracing themselves. And then as things started to unfold, people thought, oh my God, what are we dealing with? Can we deal with this? And the answer has been yes. Because while we've seen all this different kind of rhetoric coming out from sadly, the United States, which is one of the advanced economies, a powerful ally, well used to be. That kind of rhetoric has actually pushed people together. We actually see now Europe come together, has been far more aligned than it has been in in recent years. And within the climate movement, people are working together. It doesn't matter whether you are Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, Save the Children, whatever, people now know and acknowledge that when we work together, when we're a collective voice, we can move that needle. In some ways Trump has, scored his own goal, because now we know what we are dealing with. And people are wise, people are not silly. People understand the facts. You know, we've had these big tariffs, around the world. What's that? You know, in, in some ways people are now thinking about shopping locally, being more sustainable. That's a plus. In the same way we're, we're more collective. Okay, good. Yeah. And are there any countries or companies whose climate messaging you think is actually working, you know, cutting through the noise and making real change? You know, I've got a chapter on India in the book, and I think a lot of countries in the world they have the resources to start from a good place. So countries like India and China are actually investing a lot in renewables. They're streets ahead then we probably give them credit for. And then we have countries like Brazil where we feel there could be hope. They're going to be hosting COP this year, COP 31. First time in two years, that it's not in an oil producing country. So there was hope. But now what I've been reading, apart from the Brazilian government taking down forests to accommodate COP, which just seems ludicrous. And defies why we're having COP, but at the same time, we see that they're doing deals with oil companies. So again, it comes back to people power for us to be informed. Keep digging, keep asking the questions. Don't take anything for granted. And from your time in the Himalayas to your work in London, how have you seen the climate conversation shift over the decades? Are we making progress or are we just shifting slogans? Oh, that's, I think we are really making progress. When I came back to the UK in the nineties, early nineties, and I was working for a very small, not-for-profit, working on the issues of climate change. Now at that time was also calling, calling it a climate crisis. I used to work in the press office, ring up The Guardian, ring up The Telegraph, ring up The Times, you know, really good story. And the journalists, the environmental journalists would say, yeah, this is a brilliant story. Love this story Sangeeta, but how does it relate to the UK? Our editor won't let us run it. It's got to have a UK angle. Now, climate change is on our doorstep every day. And The Guardian, The Times, lots of the big mainstream broadsheets have a climate section. Never used to have that. The BBC has a climate section. And now we see even with some of the weather reporting, you know, now and again, they'll talk about how the weather is changing due to the climate crisis. And also the, the other thing I would say is in 2019, I think it was, or 2018, we had, sir David Attenborough give us his brilliant documentaries and that has been a real moment. He has educated us about what's happening to the natural world. So I think we've come a long, long way. And I'll just say one thing very, very quickly. It's here in the west, we seem to find climate deniers. If you go to countries like Africa, India. Some of the small island states that are living on the front line of the climate crisis, you don't have to convince them. You don't find climate deniers. Here in Spain, it's not really a thing either. I mean, there's one far right party called Vox who are pushing a, a climate denying agenda, but they're not getting a lot of traction with that. They are getting traction in other spheres like immigration and stuff that they're targeting. But there's not a lot of climate denial here, and I think that's the case for a lot of Europe, to be honest. Yeah. I also think, you know, the, the far right, like to tie in their policies with immigration. Wait till you start to see people fleeing people in other parts of the world, including America getting into boats because they're fleeing the climate crisis that's happening on their land. You know that will be happening very, very soon. Oh yeah, completely. Places like Bangladesh, which are very low lying when they start to be impacted by rising waters. How many people live in Bangladesh? And a lot of them will need to migrate, so yeah climate and migration are very, very closely linked and are going to get more so. And we're not having those conversations, those intelligent conversations yet, but they're around the corner. Okay, Sangeeta, every chapter in your book ends with a takeaway. If you could leave Climate Confident listeners with just one, what would it be? One simple thing that you can do, I think the most powerful thing you can do is at least once a day, just be in nature. connect with nature because you'll then realise once she's disappeared, once you don't hear those birds. Once you don't see the pollinators, then your life will be much, much sadder for it. A left field question. Sangeeta, if you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional, as a champion for climate communications, who would it be and why? Yeah, so I'm gonna be brave. I'm gonna put on some armor and I would like to sit down on that sofa with President Trump and I dunno, have some magic also with me, some magic potion and make him a climate champion because I think that would be a good voice to have on board. I think the best way to convince him would be to hand him a couple of billion dollars. That's the only language he understands. Yeah. But you know, the thing is by investing in our futures to be climate prepared and in renewables we will be profitable because that's where the jobs will be created. That's where we'll be nurturing talent. And the world will be working better together. And I think that's where, you know, if President Trump really sat down, he would understand that, but I think he does in some respect because that's why he's going into Greenland. He knows their natural resources are depleting. So where else is he going in the world? And so if he understands that natural resources are needed for business, then invest in the planet. True. I think he prioritises personal enrichment though rather than. Yeah, thi this is true. If you get, if, if that's why I need magic when I go into that oval office, it's, you know, I go with some, I don't know, some kind of magic potions and because you can't somebody like that, you need something powerful to deal, you know, to be able to deal with that kind of personality. Indeed. Yep, yep, yep. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Sangeeta. Is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I had or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of? No, I think you've just, you've asked me such brilliant questions. I've really enjoyed the conversation. I'm still thinking about that last question about going into the Oval Office and trying to convince Trump, Big bag of money. A big bag of money. Yeah. I, yeah, I, I have hope and I want people to, when they finish listening to this podcast, that there is hope, there is belief, and there is will, and we can all make a difference. Fantastic Sangeeta. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? LinkedIn. I'm on all social media platforms. I'm an open networker, same name. You'll find me Sangeeta Waldron LinkedIn. Dare I say it, I'm still on Twitter X. Yeah, I know, but I, I want to be, I want to see what's going on. Anyway, I digress. BlueSky, Threads, Instagram, Facebook. Yeah, I'm there. And the book is available on Amazon. it is indeed. And all good bookshops and it's now available in the US too. Fantastic. I'll put links to those in the show notes so everyone has access to them. Sangeeta, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thanks for having me, Tom. I really enjoyed our conversation. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.