It's called the decisive decade because we realistically need to cut annual emissions by half at the end of this decade which is a massive target. And that means that we cannot rely purely on to a large extent, unproven and unscalable technologies. And that's why the, the case for soil carbon is really, really clear. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 229 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow the podcast in your podcast app of choice, so you never miss an episode. Before we get going, a huge thank you to this podcast's, incredible supporters, Jerry Sweeney, Andreas Werner, Steven Carroll, and Roger Arnold. Your backing folks keeps this podcast going and I really appreciate your help. If you are not already a supporter and you get value from this podcast, you can support the show for as little as three euros or dollars a month, which is less than the cost of a coffee. You just need to click the support link in the show notes or visit tiny url.com/climate pod. Now you've heard about direct air capture, you've heard about hydrogen, but what if one of the biggest climate solutions we're overlooking is right under our feet soil? That's right. Healthy soil has the potential to pull gigatons of carbon from the atmosphere every year, and yet it's missing from most corporate climate strategies. My guest today is someone who's working to change that. Kanika Chandaria is leading the charge at Agreena Europe's largest soil carbon platform. But she's not just talking about soil. She's helping shift billions in finance to back farmers who are regenerating it, measuring real outcomes at scale, and proving that you can decarbonise supply chains from the ground up, literally. This isn't just about carbon credits, it's about building resilient food systems, restoring biodiversity, improving water cycles, and yes, producing more nutritious food. If your company has net zero goals or if you care about climate resilience, you're going to want to hear this. But before we get into that in the coming weeks, I'll be speaking to Ori Shaashua co-founder and CCO of Giga Blue. Chris Moyer, founder and president of Echo Communications, Heikki Pöntynen, CEO of Norse Power, and Emily Wilkinson, director at ODI. But as I said, my special guest on the show today is Kanika. Kanika, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Kanika, I'm the climate lead at Agreena which I can definitely share a little bit more about if that'd be helpful. Yeah, please do. For people who are unaware Kanika, Agreena is what? Yeah, so Agreena, we're a kind of climate tech company that's at the forefront of transforming agriculture, which is one of the most highly polluting sectors in the world, but also uniquely, it has the potential to really solve some of the climate problems that we're facing. So just to bring a bit more context to that, the way that we have been farming, for generations is kind of based on a, a process that is highly polluting. And it's served us well to a certain extent, right? We've been able to feed a large population with cheap food, but we're now kind of understanding the limitations of that. So we're basically in a situation where our food systems have been degraded, right? The, the soils actually aren't kind of functioning as they should be, which means we can't produce food at the rate that's required with the population, right that we'll inevitably have. As we look into the future. On top of that, when you combine the corporate perspective you have many corporates that are scrambling to achieve their sustainability targets. Not only just to do good for the world, but also because in many cases it's a business resilience area. If you take a food company for example, that depends on a food supply chain. These types of companies actually need, you know, scalable and impactful solutions, which is what regenerative agriculture can provide. So our business model, to put it in a simple way, we kind of work with the supply side of farmers and ensuring that they have a way to be incentivised to actually get into this transition of regenerative agriculture, so monetary incentives. And then we connect that supply side to the demand side, right? Which is the corporates who may be looking for things like carbon credits. They may be looking for specific data that supports the way that they track towards their sustainability goals. They may be looking for ways to create new sustainable financial products, for example. So that's a little bit of how it works. And then the last point that I'd love to highlight is that we're really proud of the impact and scale that we've achieved today. So Agreena today, we're the largest regenerative agriculture platform in Europe. What that means in terms of scales is that we're working in 20 markets across Europe. That covers four and a half billion hectares of land, which is actually larger than the footprint of all of Denmark, which is where the company is headquartered in. And that's working with roughly two and a half thousand farmers. So it's been, you know, an incredible journey to get to this point, and I think we're really excited about how much more potential there is to deliver. And I've had people on the podcast already talking about regenerative agriculture, but again, for people who might have missed those episodes, can you give us a quick Regen Agriculture 101? Of course. So, regen ag is a topic that's actually been around for generations, but it's really starting to get momentum now. And it's actually an interesting topic to define it because there isn't really a standard, you know, globally recognised definition for regen ag. And in the sustainability space especially, right, people love to argue about the taxonomy, which is important because we need a common kind of goalpost to work towards. But the way that, we define it and, and many in the industry define regen ag is that it's really just a set of principles that's focused on soil health, and restoring that for the purpose of resilient farming. Restoring nature, and the fact that we've degraded nature and that's kind of what I would say about defining regen ag. The other Point about regenerative that is also quite telling is if you compare it versus the word sustainability, for example, regenerating is all about making something better than what it currently is. It's restoring rather than just sustaining something so that we have it for future generations. So I think that in itself really speaks to the point that it's around rebuilding what we have actually destroyed and putting more back into the land than we take out. If that's a little bit abstract to also understand, I think it's also helpful to compare it to traditional conventional farming which has gotten to the state that we're in. So I mentioned before that agriculture is a problem. And to illustrate that a little bit more, right? So agriculture currently produces roughly a third of global greenhouse gas emissions. And on top of that if you look at the estimates that come from the Food and Agriculture Organisation, we have roughly 40 to 60 harvests in the way that we're currently treating the climate. So if we continue on this trajectory of climate change. That's within my lifetime which is really alarming and scary, right? Because we're starting to understand this reality of the climate disaster that we're in, there's also urgency to address the problem. So that's where regen ag really comes in. So this is a way of farming that kind of yeah, makes the soils healthier and why that's important, actually, another analogy that I could maybe use is the analogy of a sponge, which I've heard from one of our farmers. For example, right, if you think of a healthy soil under regenerative practices, it really acts like a living sponge. So you're building up the organic living matter within the soil. What that does is it creates structure in the soil. So that means, for example, if you have a massive downpour of rain. the soil is actually able to absorb that rain rather than having that rain run off with nasty, polluting chemical fertilisers. And that just means that you're gonna be able to grow stronger plants that can withstand right all of these climate shocks that are coming into place. So hopefully that's a comprehensive definition of the way that we see regenerative agriculture. Okay. And of course in doing that, what you're doing as well is sequestering carbon, which is, why we're talking about it on the Climate Confident Podcast, where we talk about successful emissions reduction stories and strategy. So the regen ag is not just improving soil health, but actually sequestering carbon to help in the climate fight. Absolutely. So how much carbon are we talking about? Yeah, so there, there's an interesting stat around the, the kind of potential for soil to store carbon. And it's something like our soils actually have the potential to store three times more carbon than the atmosphere. So what I see is really interesting is, in the climate fight, if we're gonna try and get right to net zero by 2050. If we're honest with ourselves, right, we're really far off from that. Why soil carbon is so interesting is that it actually has the potential to, if we do it well, right globally across vast kinda agricultural systems, you can remove or sequester two to five gigatons of carbon annually. So that's gigaton scale impact, which is really massive when you compare it to the engineered solutions that, are very popular today, but have limitations in terms of what they can actually deliver. Why is soil such an overlooked but powerful climate lever do you think? Yeah, that's a good question. So, I mean, if we just focus on the carbon credit landscape. That's probably a good place to start because that's where I really see that soil carbon is overlooked, right? Amongst the entire landscape of carbon credits. So if you think about what currently dominates the market you basically have one side of the market, which is very cheap, low quality avoidance credits. And those types of credits, they don't actually remove carbon from the air. Now, on the other hand you have the credits that are actually, I would say generating the most demand, number one, but also the most funding, right? When you think of the climate tech startups and scale ups that have really gathered traction. The problem with these types of solutions, if you take a direct air capture, for example, is that they're expensive, they're slow to scale and we don't really know the impact that will be eventually delivered because they're new, right? Only time will tell. That means that there's a really big gap in the middle of those two extremes, and that's where I really see soil carbon fitting in. We talked a little bit about the, the potential for soil to sequester carbon. And what's really interesting is that soil is like the largest terrestrial or land, land-based carbon sink that we actually have available to us today. And as I had said before if we do it right, it has the potential to sequester up to five gigatons of carbon equivalent emissions which is really, you know, massive impact. And then the uncomfortable truth that we should also probably talk about is the way that the carbon market actually works from a buyer perspective, right? So I talked about the two extremes, but the priorities of the carbon market today are very heavily indexed on permanence. right, which is oftentimes the way that we talk about it is solutions that when they store carbon, they will store that carbon for over a thousand years. And then also very rigorous standards, which are very important and to soil carbon. We can speak a little bit about what we're doing there from the standards perspective, but when we keep both of those things in mind we're really overindexing on something that is perfect. And that means that it's, it's not a market that's set up to actually scale up solutions effectively. So if we are to realistically hit net zero goals by 2050 and get on that 1.5 degree pathway that, you know, many people oftentimes laugh at today we need to be working with a mindset of scalable and immediately impactful solutions, which is where soil carbon comes in, right? It's a solution that is relatively low tech. The main barriers are behavior change with, farmers, right? And getting corporates to actually understand the potential so that they're willing to fund the transition. but it's low tech in the sense that there isn't, you know, some scientific science fiction direct air capture plant that we need to build that we haven't quite proven. That's what I would say in terms of why it's kind of a, an undertapped but heavily impactful solution that we need to be paying more attention to. The last thing I will say right, is we talked about I think that the question that you posed to me was really focused on the potential for soil carbon to sequester carbon or regen ag to sequester soil carbon. The other overlooked thing and I think the market is getting a little bit more mature here, is when we look at co-benefits. Co-benefits are super interesting because it means we're looking beyond just the potential for a given solution to either remove or reduce carbon emissions. We're thinking about the broader, for example, environmental impacts. So, if you take agriculture, we talked about the emissions intensity, but you know what people might not also know is that it's the way that we've been farming has been destroying biodiversity. It has been destroying our fresh water resources. And when you take in mind the potential for regen ag to really encourage life, life within the soil and above the soil, as well as the fact that you're reducing the reliance on chemical inputs, which therefore reduce rate the amount of runoff that goes into our water systems. Those are some fantastic co-benefits along with the food security argument. You did mention though behavior change in the farmers, and we all know that changing technologies is relatively straightforward, but changing behaviors in people is a lot slower. trickier, there's a lot of, we fear change involved. So how do you work around that? Yeah. And there's probably two dimensions that we can go into. Maybe one is the farmer side of things, right? As I said, right? We operate on both the supply side and the demand side. But perhaps we zoom in on the farmer side first, right? So I think if you take the argument for regenerative agriculture from a farmer perspective, no one can argue about the benefits over a 10 year transition period. But the important thing that I've said there is that there's a transition period that means that when a farmer chooses to adopt regenerative agriculture practices, the benefits won't come immediately. It takes time. And the reason for that is that farmers will have to adopt new practices. It means that they are relying less on these chemical inputs. What does that mean for the soil? It means that the soil actually needs time to adjust right to a new normalcy because it's a very different state that the soil is having to work with. And you know, one of the the interesting things that a farmer had actually said in one of our events is, how can I focus on being green when I'm in the red? And I think that's so telling, right? Because, farmers, especially the ones that we work with, which are row crop farmers, right? So your wheats, your corns, your oats, these types of crops, that's an industry where there's just so many middlemen. Which means that these farmers have teeny, teeny razor thin margins. So, for them to actually operate, they need incentives to make this transition. If I sum it up right at Agreena and, and many others in the industry, they'll say that there's three real barriers to change. And, and actually implementing this transition. One is financial, which speaks to the razor thin margin point that I've said. So how do you create financial incentives for these farmers? And this is where right carbon credits through the voluntary carbon market, where supply chain incentives through players like Pepsi, Mars, Nestle, come in, where green loans that banks can actually encourage. That's where this comes in. The second barrier is knowledge. And there, you know, what I can say is that no two hectares within farmland are actually the same, and that's due to a multiple number of reasons. For example, a farmer might be, growing different things, it might be a different climate context. So several things at play there, which makes it so that no single hector is the same as another. So that means that farmers need access to contextual agronomy advice, which is very difficult, right? If we're talking about changing the way that our entire agricultural system works. And then the third point is community. And farmers are very community driven people in the sense that if you just think of a, town that is focused on farming. You have farmers who are constantly looking over their field to see what another farmer is actually implementing and what the results look like. They're practical in the sense that they care about what's gonna deliver at the best deals, what's gonna produce the best crop. But if you are in a place in the world where regen ag adoption is low, what that means is you're gonna have to have the courage to take on something new while all of your neighbors are looking over, right to see. You know, is it, are you, you know, Thomas Farmer actually doing well, right? With what you're trying? And if, that farmer isn't doing well, it means that there's a knock on effect, right? For the rest of the community. They'll see regen ag as a no-go. So those are kind of the barriers that exist from a, a farmer perspective. So this is where market mechanisms come in to alleviate some of those tension. And that's also where technology comes in to try and, you know, provide that contextual knowledge, but also community building for farmers within a specific region. And obviously you need a lot in terms of MRV, so measurement, reporting, verification. How do you build trust in carbon credits that come from soil? Yeah, that's a, a great question. And this is now getting into the trust building for the corporate side. Now soil carbon and regenerative agriculture as a whole, it's a very complex thing to monitor, right? Because you're talking about 5 billion hectares of agricultural land globally. So that's vast, right? In terms of scale. And then also we're talking about measuring what happens underneath the ground, which isn't a simple thing to do. So when it comes to building confidence on the demand side with corporates. And this is actually not only for carbon credit specifically, but even with the data itself, right? If a corporate is buying data or if a corporate is purchasing a soil carbon credit, they wanna be assured that whatever they're purchasing actually does what it says it does right, in terms of the benefits that are being delivered, whether that's soil organic carbon, whether that's an uplift in biodiversity, et cetera. So this is where science really comes in, but also technology. And let's start with the technology piece, right? Which is where MRV comes into the equation. So, MRV, it stands for measurement, reporting and verification. In a world without sophisticated technologies for MRV in soil carbon you would have to go to you know, every field out there that you're monitoring. You would have to basically take soil samples from multiple parts within that field. You would then have to compare it right with, pictures that farmers could be, you know, providing that shows what's actually happening on the ground from a practice perspective. And that's just, logistically not feasible if we're trying to really change, right, the agricultural system. So the way that that we do it right, is we're actually leveraging AI and machine learning as well as satellite imagery to do this in a more effective and scalable way. So we combine what we're seeing up top through aerial satellite imagery to understand if we look up top at a field, we can understand what practices a farmer is specifically implementing, whether that's cover crops, whether that's tillage and so on. And then we calibrate that with a selected set of soil samples that are, specifically targeted in areas where there is statistical inaccuracy, for example. And that means that we're training the model constantly with real world data. So it just gets better and better over time. And the benefit of this MRV is that we can deliver results with the same levels of accuracy, however, with fewer actual physical samples. And that's really important because, you know, oftentimes when we talk about the benefits of this scalable, more cost effective MRV, it's really focused on the cost part of the equation. But why it's important for a project developer like us, that's focusing developing high quality soil carbon, it means that we're able to scale our impact faster. It means being able to work with more farmers and more hectares than we would otherwise be able to. And that just, unlocks greater reach and impact. And what's your take on how soil carbon compares to other carbon removal approaches like DAC or Biochar? Yeah. So we talked a little bit about the DAC part of the equation already. To sum it up more simply the highly engineered solutions tend to just not be scalable, right? They, they can deliver impact, but there's a lot of unknowns around that, especially in terms of can we scale impact fast enough to achieve the type of impact that we actually desperately need. So if we think about where we are, 2030, this is oftentimes, you know, coined the decisive decade for action. It's 2025 already. So we're halfway through. And it's called the decisive decade because we realistically need to cut annual emissions by half at the end of this decade which is a massive target. And that means that we cannot rely purely on to a large extent, unproven and unscalable technologies. And that's why the, the case for soil carbon is really, really clear. Biochar you brought up that, right? So that's, that's a, a really interesting innovation actually in the space. And I think we're actually huge advocates for biochar. I think biochar works actually very well with the principles of regenerative agriculture because when biochar is actually applied to fields, it also reduces, the need for chemical inputs and polluting fertilisers or pesticides and things like that. So it actually aligns very well right, with the principles of soil health that regenerative agriculture promotes. And you could say the same as well, right for enhanced rock weathering, which is kind of in a similar family to biochar. And what about the role of financial institutions in scaling this space? Yeah, so that's, that's a great point. And I think we, we have some examples that we're super proud of that we could speak about. I kind of alluded to some of this before, right, that, in the way that we work with corporates, we're able to provide data that can help a number of use cases. So the financial sector is one of the, segments that we really target. We work quite a bit with the IFC, which is part of the World Bank to promote financial solutions for farmers transitioning. Probably the best example to talk about is our work with Raiffeisen Bank. This is an example where with Raiffeisen, they were basically really keen on promoting regenerative agriculture in Ukraine specifically, and that's a good country to focus on because obviously there's been war right, and that war has meant degrading the natural environment. That has also meant open questions around food security of the nation. So what Raiffeisen Bank wanted to do is support their farmer portfolio within Ukraine. And in their case, their largest credit portfolio is actually in the agri sector. So it makes sense for them not only right to to support a nation in the near term be more resilient, but it also means business resilience for them in the long term if they're able to support their agricultural, client base in being more resilient far into the future. It means those agricultural clients will continue to be banking customers of theirs. So that's, that's really what the case is for the financial sector. So to kind of make it more specific right, in terms of what we actually did with Raiffeisen Bank, It was all about providing data. And this data was then able to help Raiffeisen actually understand the rate at which farmers in their portfolio were adopting these regenerative agricultural practices, but also the benefits that these regen ag practices were delivering, right? In terms of soil carbon, which is a proxy for soil health in terms of biodiversity and so on. That meant that with this data, Raiffeisen can then work at creating sustainable linked loans. But you can only do that, right? If you've got the data to actually prove the upside and benefit of doing so. And talk to me a little bit about the data then. So mentioned you're collecting data using primarily satellite imaging, mixing that with AI. How can you assure the business community that this data is not just verifiable, but let's say trustworthy? Yeah, and this is where relying on third party standards is incredibly important. So with Agreena we've basically worked with Verra, which is a leading body, especially in the carbon credits world. And we've aligned to their specific methodology, VM 42, which is designed specifically for soil carbon. Now we're in kind of a lengthy process with Verra, which has multiple stages, but the, the most important milestone has been passed, right? Which is Verra's review of Agreena's methodology. And that's really important because it means that their methodologies are backed by a whole tranche, right of peer reviewed science. So it's not just Agreena saying, Hey, my methodology is solid and you should trust me, but we've got the stamp right of a internationally or, or globally reclaimed body like Verra to, thoroughly review our science and the way that we're collecting data and accounting for any discrepancies in that data. Their backing right means a lot in terms of in assuring the, the business community that there's third party verification. And how do you see the interoperability between the financial world, the carbon markets, and the food supply chains evolving? Yeah. So interoperability is, I think it's such a, a current topic. And what I would love to say about that is, is oftentimes when we talk about regenerative agriculture, we often treat it like a series of kind of disconnected actions, right? It's, it's one crop like wheat over here. It's a carbon credit, you know, in one country there. But the reality of farming systems is that they are complex, integrated systems that are growing a crop rotation. So if we're genuinely serious, right about transforming the way our food systems actually work, it means that the frameworks in which the business community is able to contribute to it needs to reflect, that kind of complexity. And if we take the farmer perspective, farmers are being asked to do a lot today, right? They're on the front lines of climate change. They're being asked to grow more with less. They have to decarbonise, they have to protect biodiversity and so on. So it's a lot of pressure on them. And then the financial tools to support them. You have the voluntary carbon market. You have, you know, maybe a green loan somewhere in the mix. You have food companies that are trying to incentivise them, but the problem is that all of these things don't quite work well together at the moment. Trying to access, right all of these different markets and use cases can be really complicated for a farmer, right? How do you know which one to tap into? And what we're trying to do at Agreena is we're trying to work with farmers on the entire farm level. So maybe if I deep dive into the, tension that exists between the voluntary carbon market and supply chain initiatives. So if we take the example of a player that we've actually worked with, Mars Pet Care. Now, Mars Pet Care, they source a lot of wheat from Hungary, which is an area that has traditionally, you know, low penetration of regenerative agriculture. And like I said, that's a very big hurdle to come over because farmers, they're community minded. So if nobody's doing it, it's very hard to convince one person to have the courage to, to really show the change. Now with Mars, we designed a program to incentivise, I think some 6,000 to 9,000 hectares of, wheat farmland to transition towards regenerative agriculture practices. That incentive program that that was designed together only takes care of the wheat, right? But like I said before, a farmer is typically growing a crop rotation. They might be growing. If a farmer listens to this, they might say, Kanika, what are you talking about? But in terms of, does, does this crop rotation actually work? But I'm just gonna give an example of, okay, a farmer is growing, you know, corn, grass, wheat, and maybe oat in one season. If you want the farmer to overcome the financial hurdles of that transition, they need financial incentives to be able to cover that entire rotation, right? So yes, a Mars might be helping them on their wheat, but what about the corn? What about the oat? What about the grass? And that's where you need this interoperability between multiple markets. Okay. what innovations in soil, carbon, or Ag tech are you most excited about right now? So that's a good one. We talked a little bit about biochar, right? And I think, there's tons of exciting innovations in the realm of soil carbon. At Agreena Right? we're, focused on the types of practices that I said have been around for generations. So if we take no-till, if we take cover cropping, if we take residue management, these are things that aren't novel. The only thing that's new right, is the technology and science that has come in to verify the benefits of those practices. But I think there's an entire ecosystem of innovations that work really well together with the traditional practices that we're doing. So just to name a few, right? We talked about biochar already being a really good fertiliser alternative that enhances, all of the benefits of good soil health. Enhanced rock weathering is another. The third one, which we haven't touched upon is actually, it's called microbials. So microbials are basically the living things that exist within soil. So you take, for example, fungi, you take great bacteria. I actually did work with a player called Groundwork Bio Ag during my time or in my past career life. So I was with BCG Green Ventures, and I worked with a player called Groundworks, which actually launched me into really being passionate about the regenerative agriculture topic. And I think there's so many interesting innovations there in terms of things that you can add to the soil that just, massively enhance soil health. And some of these next generation approaches, what's really exciting about them and specific is that they're able to drastically reduce the timescale for impact. Before, when I talked about the transition period for at least traditional regenerative agriculture practices, we're talking about, you know, up to a 10 year transition to see the benefits. And some players that I've seen are able to actually reduce that by like five to 10 years. So it's not really a single innovation that I'm super excited about, but I think it's this entire ecosystem of soil health amplifiers, whether it's the biochar, whether it's the enhanced crop weathering, whether it's the microbial innoculants. All of these things working together, I think can really drastically accelerate the time to impact for creating a resilient and sustainable food system. If you could wave a magic wand and fix one thing holding back the Regen ag movement, what would it be? I would say it's actually this interoperability issue. And I think right, we, we just cannot be treating the incentives for soil, carbon, and regenerative agriculture as an either or problem. We need everything all at once. We need all ecosystem players finding solutions to accelerate this transition, because the reality is there's not gonna be a single silver bullet to solve the climate challenge that we're in. But what we do know with the regen ag and soil carbon in specific is that it's something that exists today that is relatively easier to scale, right? There's no engineering complexity involved. It's primarily just behavior change, and we have the tools to be able to solve those issues. My call to action, for everybody in the space, whether you're a company that has sustainability goals. Or a company that is working with clients that are in this agri sector. Please think about the, potential of regen ag and what it means for your business. And don't get hung up on the, challenges or pointing the finger at other solutions that kind of might not work perfectly with what you're trying to do. And for listeners who care about climate but aren't in agriculture, what's one thing they could do to support regenerative practices Mm. That's a, that's a good one. One thing that's interesting about regen ag is that it's gaining momentum within the business community as well as within the farmer community. But with consumers, it's not something that's really top of mind. Consumers may think about organic produce, for example, and pay a premium for organic produce, but if you ask somebody on the street what is regen ag they might not really have an answer to that. I would encourage consumers to really think about what regen ag means, and when they, purchase food from food manufacturers to actually try and like, think about what are those players doing in the realm of regen ag. Because ultimately regen ag is encouraging a food system that is healthier, right? When we talk about soil health. And it's only logical that healthy soil produces healthier, more nutrient rich food. So think about, you know, what you're eating and what your food's eating and ensuring that the companies that you're purchasing from actually have commitments to try and create the transition that we need. Okay, superb. And a left field question, if you could have any person or character, or dead, real or fictional as a champion for regen ag, who would it be and why? That's actually, that's a good one because, 2025 has been a, a year that has been realistically very difficult on a climate front, right? There's been tons of political headwinds that have really attacked, the climate narrative. There has been a bit of ESG fatigue and actually what was great is that you know, I woke up to the news of Mark Carney winning the Canadian, presidential election. And I think the world has a lot to learn from somebody like him. He is somebody that is treating the entire climate topic not only as a moral obligation of doing the right thing, but he is grounding the climate problem in an economic reality. And, at the stage or the maturity, the part of the maturity curve where sustainability currently is today, we desperately need figures like that who are able to create a narrative that speaks to conservative people who are against the green folks that grounds the, the rationale for climate action in something more than just doing what's good for the world. So I would love to, to pick his brains right on, on what we can learn from a societal perspective to really shift the narrative and, and get people to really buy into climate action. Nice. I like it. Very good. Super kanika we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of? I think we touched on quite a lot of ground, Tom. So maybe nothing now, but perhaps if there's something else, it could be picked up in another edition. Great. I like it. Super. Super. Okay. Kanika, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed today, where would you have me direct them? LinkedIn is a great place so you can find me on LinkedIn. And if you're keen to learn more about Agreena, definitely check out the Agreena website, Agreena.com. Okay. Superb. I'll put those links in the show notes so everyone has access to them. So Kanika. Fantastic. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thanks so much Tom. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.