Julia Souder: 0:00

As a community we've spent a century optimising for fuel. But what's so interesting is the energy transition is now defined by time. And so the sun sets, the wind drops, demand peaks. We talk about flexibility, but markets do not know how to price time.

Tom Raftery: 0:25

And that turns long duration storage from a technology question into an infrastructure investment and market design problem. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is Climate Confident Stories and Strategies That Cut Emissions Episode 292, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Today's guest, Julia Souder is CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. We look at why the technology is increasingly ready, why finance and market rules are now the bigger constraint and what China and other markets are already learning about deploying storage at scale. Let's dive in. Julia, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to tell people who haven't come across you before, who you are and what you do?

Julia Souder: 1:15

Tom, it's great to be back. Thank you so much for the opportunity. And I am the CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. We are a global trade association working across every ecosystem to promote and scale long duration energy storage solutions to reach the eight terawatt goal by 2040. But what's so exciting is that the need is there. The technologies are there. We just need more market access.

Tom Raftery: 1:40

And obviously storage, particularly long duration energy storage is required if we want to scale up the penetration of renewables on grids. So what starts to break if we scale renewables without scaling long duration energy storage?

Julia Souder: 1:58

I think everything breaks because I think and, and, and I don't, I, I mean that full heartedly too. I mean, I, not only am I passionate about this, I really care because we, we really need this to make a difference. I think we're having an, an awakening to the, the role of AI and what it does for us. I think we're having an awakening for energy storage and how critical long duration storage is. I think it's fascinating having conversations with colleagues around the world that as a community we've spent a century optimising for fuel. But what's so interesting is the energy transition is now defined by time. And so the sun sets the wind drops, demand peaks. We talk about flexibility, but markets do not know how to price time. And I think this is where duration storage as an infrastructure asset really makes that resource, that shows how we can really provide that storage. The shifting and just like the, power and the heat behind the necessity. And I think this is why we're not just a clean energy story we're an energy security story. I think that's why it's so important that we are an energy security story.

Tom Raftery: 2:58

And when were talking about long duration energy storage at the start, you mentioned 8 10 hours, 12 hours, et cetera, et cetera. Had we been having this discussion two decades ago, eight minutes would've been long duration energy storage. Now we're at eight hours. Is that where it starts for you in terms of the definition? Eight hours, and if so, in 10 years, would it be eight days? Is it a moving target?

Julia Souder: 3:25

That's a really good question. And I'd say it does start for us at eight hours. It's kind of the bridge between short duration, which we need. But we also need to showcase that we are having more and more instances where we need energy shifting for multiple hours, multiple days, and multiple weeks. And so this shifting as we continue to build out the infrastructure and, and deal with the different pressure points I think will evolve. But I think what's really important is can the markets evolve with this? And we have the technologies, that's not a problem. The technologies are there. It's really just do we have the, markets and the payment structures to pay for all the services that they provide.

Tom Raftery: 4:00

And do we?

Julia Souder: 4:01

Have the markets? No. In some places around the world we do, but not everywhere. And I think that's one of the biggest barriers to demonstrating that the just enormous scale that we need. We're, we're deploying, we have technologies that are commercially available and that are now at the gigawatt hour stage. We, we actually have shown that there, but let's see, in 2025 there was 15 gigawatt hours of long duration storage installed and that was 49% over the last year. So I mean, we're already seeing that we're having this deployed because markets are having the right signals. We had the LDES Council have shown on our project tracker that we've got 9.2 gigawatts of installed global capacity in 2026. So we're showing this growth, but you're seeing where the trends are because those are the markets that are supporting long direct storage. They're competing either capacity payments or they're competing, they're providing value for the time that we provide. And ancilliary service benefits. You're seeing this in the United Kingdom, you're seeing this in Australia. You're seeing this in some states in the US. But we need to see this kind of become a lot larger to really get the enormous benefits and savings that LDES can provide over a period of time. And when we do deploy this 140 terawatt hours of LDES, you can get 540 billion US dollars a year in savings. So yes, you pay upfront costs, but the savings comes, really quickly afterwards because you have a market set up and you have a payment scheme that can really provide all the benefits.

Tom Raftery: 5:26

What then gets more expensive when countries wait too long? Because most countries so far are waiting too long. You have to think when there's only those few countries you mentioned who are putting policies in place to support long duration.

Julia Souder: 5:40

I think affordability is a global crisis. I mean, this has been a topic that, every community is facing because of higher prices, inflation and, the volatility that everyone's feeling. I think what we have at our, at our fingertips and we can start working on is, is policy creation to really help bring costs down. And so whether we've been deploying long duration storage solutions behind the meter we're working with communities microgrids to really show benefits. And so the savings, so this can help provide the, story and the narrative to showcase how you could bring this on onto grid infrastructure and grid components. And again, I think we've been showcasing the countries where we have market solutions that work. Then the savings provided that this then gives some sense of security that they could do the same thing or also adjust markets so that they can provide more value. We're not asking to recreate the wheel, we're just saying utilise existing infrastructure components, markets, and then really then account for the benefits of long door share storage solutions as a grid asset.

Tom Raftery: 6:38

Okay, tell me a little bit about what's happening in China, because I know you guys went on a recent to China there. I read a release about that. But for people listening, China is often perceived as a little bit of a black box. So what's happening in the LDES space in China, because I know in terms of the renewable deployment there, it's amazing what they're doing in terms of wind and solar and in terms of grid infrastructure as well. So what's happening in the LDES space in China?

Julia Souder: 7:08

It was so fascinating to be in China to really understand how it's happening on the ground, and it was so motivational to be at this Chinese energy storage conference with our partners. And to see over 250,000 attendees working on energy storage and of all types and all durations, and to see projects up and running. We were able to go to a couple of our members' facilities and actually stand in Rongke's hundred megawatt hour vanadium flow plant across the street from a coal plant. And the grid operators were there optimising the long duration storage solution to offset the coal plant. And it was in a city centre next to gas station. So the safety elements were really huge, but just studying in a real world working facility that was providing LDES solutions, that was proving itself and already starting to build construction on the, the scale of the next phase to another a hundred megawatt hours was pretty amazing. And just to see the scale of opportunities with zones that do support, the infrastructure of industrial hubs to build the, the different components of long duration storage, but then also to really support the jobs to like then, build this out in different communities. It was fascinating to learn just the evolution of the market policies that have supported long duration storage. Inside China, they've been working a lot on short duration, really using this to help with grid mitigation. But they saw early on because of the enormous amount of renewable energy integration that they had to have long duration stores to help fill in the gaps. And they created policies that are very strong to help the market signals in the different provinces and then also with the federal government, like to have this synergy. And so there's different types of payments for long duration services. Not just capacity, but resource adequacy and flexibility components and being able to, compete on the grid and have services in conjunction with existing assets. It's been remarkable to see. We have a Energy Vault has a gravity project there that has been providing services and at this scale is enormous. Again, you're seeing, gigawatt hours and we're seeing, deployments of lots of plants using a lot of robotics and energy efficiency really well. What all is also exciting is that China's not looking at one size fits all or one solution to fits all. It really understands the diversity of needing different, components, different energy solutions, especially within long duration to meet different areas. And I think this was very exciting to see that you really need to diversify the portfolio to gain all the different benefits from the various long duration storage technologies. I think what also is exciting in China is the partnerships. Just seeing that the synergies of how do we, continue to look at creativity and supply chains looking at different types of ways to be more effective and efficient and work with partners within China, but also externally as well. So, a very, collaborative, I think mindset was really seen about what's available, what's been working on. And then there was also a great kind of supportive, the technologies that have been around for 20, 30 years and then how to share information to even make them more effective and efficient. So it was a great learning experience for our members in China, but also our members that came to China to really understand the ecosystem and how can other countries really learn from what's working well and what's not working well.

Tom Raftery: 10:42

And what can they learn from that? What, what lessons were you able to take away from that visit to China? You know what does China seem to understand about storage deployment that other markets are still figuring out?

Julia Souder: 10:53

I think China has done a great job of looking at what's been working around the world and not working in various market constructs and their new 15 five year plan, they've laid out specifically how they can spell out different payment schemes for long duration storage. And they're testing them and they're willing to work through modifications within these five years to say, this worked, this doesn't work. So that flexibility within the policy creation, I think is really helpful. They're also just willing to really kinda have that collaboration with the provinces and, the federal government, just trying to see how the synergies work and then kinda given the right authorities. I think this is what we're seeing in Australia has been really beneficial as a public-private partnership. And we're seeing this in Spain as well with the government helping finance, some of the projects to like get them to the scale and then also, or like really understanding the cap and floor or, just setting the right parameters with some flexibility. And they're also seeing then the market structure is really giving those strong signals that there's a market for long duration energy storage to perform and that it will be there, not just for two years, but five years and longer. And I think that certainty really helps with demonstrating how long duration storage are bankable products.

Tom Raftery: 11:58

That distinction matters. This is starting to look less like a technology race and more like a market design problem. The hardware and work deployment follows revenue certainty, which makes the range of technologies much more interesting. And your case studies on the website include different technologies. Technologies might be a big word here for rocks, sand, air,

Julia Souder: 12:27

It's crazy. Low cost materials, very safe, low cost.

Tom Raftery: 12:33

flow batteries, as you mentioned with Rongke.

Julia Souder: 12:35

Yeah.

Tom Raftery: 12:35

What, what do those examples tell us about the real shape of the market?

Julia Souder: 12:39

I think it's fascinating because we're showing that there's a, a huge need with industrial customers, with data centres. They want to own and operate or have long duration storage assets on site because provide savings. We're seeing that, these are low cost materials that are available. They do not have supply, chain constraints. They can really become accessible less than five years, less than two years. They can be built in a year. I think this has been really helpful and the savings that are provided. These are technology solutions again, that are, are, are proven. It's just we need the, the bankability piece. And I think that's what we're demonstrating on our, you know, with Heineken and, having Bryn Miller and we've just got, these kind of like great examples of showing that there's these solutions. It's also demonstrating that there's, the infrastructure follows the right policy signals. We're seeing that these projects are working in certain parts of Europe and the US because they were able to have great deal flow and contracts. I think the other big thing about this is that it's really demonstrating that, the timeline for this like asset class is there and that we just really need to have the mindset that it's not really the cost. I think, I imagine early at the beginning time is a piece of this and that they're getting the resources and the cost saving some time. Not just the cost of power, the cost of heat. I think what's really important that you're seeing is that the case studies are demonstrating that these are investments. These are not just like bets. This is actually like part of their asset class. I think that's important to see'cause you're getting the savings. You're getting, again, just the, the access to, providing the economic value, which I think is what's great about long duration storage.

Tom Raftery: 14:08

Okay. And are there any particular examples that best show that LDES is already practical and not just theoretical?

Julia Souder: 14:14

Oh yeah. I mean, we have a bunch. We have a, on our website, we've got a project tracker that really demonstrates around the world. You can see these, 9.2 gigawatts deployed, but you can also see that you're looking at Rio Tinto. They have a project that, they're working with thermal energy stores. And Rondo, you've seen what Noon energy has done with the data centres and with Meta. And these are a, it's a gigawatt pipeline. You're seeing form energy with Google on their 300 megawatt project. So again, we're these contracts are getting signed because there's a need. And I think the other big piece is that, it's really just showing that there's the value add. We're addressing the time flexibility components, but we're also adding a lot of other assets as well. And I think this is why long duration storage is so critical for providing the value add is that we can, again, touch every industry, whether you are PepsiCo or Lay's or looking for a data centre, we, have a solution to provide the savings.

Tom Raftery: 15:06

Nice. And obviously this shows that this isn't just one technology looking for a problem. It's a system need with multiple solutions.

Julia Souder: 15:16

Exactly. It's a category that you can choose from in your toolkit to make sure you're addressing what you particularly need. And I think that's the reason why there's no silver bullet. You have lots of great opportunities. Again, the, toolkit to address what you need to have, which I think is super powerful.

Tom Raftery: 15:32

Okay. And where does long duration storage solve something that short term batteries simply can't.

Julia Souder: 15:39

There's a variety of ways. I mean, if you're looking at the thermal energy storage, when you're seeing like steam being turned into around the clock power or heat, you're looking at rocks and salts providing, the input for, the 1800 degree Celsius need to address that, a new type of generation. You're also looking at just the fact that we have this short duration can really cover like four, six hours. And then if you really wanna see the value of over 8, 10, 24 you get a, different skillset and of the long duration storage of not needing to recharge every hour. You, you have charged up over the time, so you have this capacity to provide value for a longer period of time. I think one more piece that also is interesting is we have some members who are working with different customers in industrial space and data centres who have existing assets like a natural gas plant or a peaker plant online, but they're bringing long duration storage next to it so they don't have to use it or run it when such high costs are there and they can have long duration storage also mitigate the ups and downs and maybe even pair with solar. It's that diverse portfolio that really brings together additional benefits of what the flexibility of the different LDES solutions can provide. I think that's also really important to see is like how long duration storage can address volatility in a variety of different definitions, because it's really providing a solution that solves multiple problems.

Tom Raftery: 17:00

Okay, so short duration batteries are like the fridge. Where LDES is, the freezer and the pantry. You need both, but they solve different problems.

Julia Souder: 17:08

I love that. Yes, Tom. that's great.

Tom Raftery: 17:13

And a lot of people hear storage and think electricity. How important is heat in the LDES story?

Julia Souder: 17:19

Just as equally as important. We've got power and heat are essential. I mean, that's how we touch every single industry and the entire ecosystem. And many of our technologies can provide inertia. They can offset what a fossil fuel plant. They can again, provide all these different toolkits and ancillary services at extremely low cost.

Tom Raftery: 17:39

Okay, and is the bigger appeal, emissions reduction, cost control, reliability, avoiding major process changes, all of the above. Something else entirely.

Julia Souder: 17:53

All of the above. I think it, again, depends on the customer's needs. And that's what the unique value is of the LDES Technology Solutions, is that we have, local resources that can be utilised and repurposed by providing, different types of resources of long duration storage technologies. So I think that's the benefit, is that some companies want emissions reductions and low cost. Other companies want low costs and they want a different type of metric for supply chain. Others want, three or four boxes. And so you can wrap these deal flows and these value packages with long duration energy storage solutions, which is again, why it's so exciting to see that the technologies are here. It's really just making sure we have the market and the finances to, really support the bankability of what long duration storage can provide.

Tom Raftery: 18:36

Okay, and if LDES can save money system wide, why is it still so hard to finance?

Julia Souder: 18:42

Because we don't have all the right market components and criteria. I mean, for example, in California, resource adequacy only goes up to four hours. If it went to eight or 12, be a game changer overnight. We are seeing more legislation support this and given mandates. If you see Virginia recently, the state has over 600 data centres, I think some of the largest in the world. It's in the capacity and the concentration. But what was really exciting is that just this year, Virginia, like set a standard for 4.5 gigawatts by 2040 of long duration storage and even set out 10 hour plus, 24 hour plus to demonstrate, having those market signals for different technologies provide different values. We're seeing more states in the United States, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Massachusetts, speak to this more. And we have a, a coming report on ISO New England that also shows when you're looking at different markets, how can long duration storage provide solutions to, different constraints on the system. And we're, looking at what PGMs working on with their capacity conversations. And, we've been doing a lot of work with, I mentioned earlier the markets in UK and Australia, and we've also published a paper in India on, on public policy of how policies can really help address the need for long duration storage. India has over 250 gigawatts of renewable energy deployed up and running. Gujurat has some of the largest in the country and the state. And so we've been working with Gujurat and the federal government of like, how can we help build not only procurement criteria, but also market criteria to really provide the value in the savings to customers. And this has been really exciting just to see the requests coming in for partnership of how to really start expanding market criteria and procurement to really support the values that long duration and storage solutions can provide.

Tom Raftery: 20:25

Virginia is one thing, but Ireland is probably even more extreme of an example, because about 22% of the Irish electricity grid is used by data centres. Just data centres,

Julia Souder: 20:39

Amazing.

Tom Raftery: 20:39

of the entire grid. Have you had any talks with the Irish government or Irish policy makers around this?

Julia Souder: 20:46

Yes. Actually my team is, is, they're in Europe this week. We had some meetings in Finland working with one of our partners, Euro Electric and working with the utilities in Europe and also having like meetings with ministers in Ireland specifically on long duration storage because of the enormous need that they have. Also because they don't want to be in the same category of what happened with the UK with the billions of pounds lost with curtailment offshore wind and have that happen in Scotland as well, so in Ireland. And so we're really wanting to make sure that that Irish government, they did a recent procurement, for storage. It focused on four hour. And even we've been working with them and the utilities Eirgrid to really look at the benefits and have a greater understanding of what long duration storage can provide with the 8, 12, 24, 48. And so we're excited to see this next stage of procurement to really support the expansion of long duration storage market because it is, a huge, wonderful example of where we can add value. And I think it's also gonna help set precedent in other parts of Europe.

Tom Raftery: 21:46

Okay. What do you think has to change so investors see LDES as infrastructure as opposed to, I don't know, risky climate tech?

Julia Souder: 21:56

I think one of the biggest bottlenecks is that it's not technical, it is financial, but it's a solvable problem. And so we need to really look at total project cost. Long duration storage assets are 30 year, 40 year, 50 year multiple years with no fuel price exposure. They've provide capacity, resiliency, congestion relief. I mean, storage as a transmission asset is a whole nother market piece that is, debated, but also could be, seen as great congestion relief. And that we need to get, again, those market criteria pieces for multi-day reliability. And when you look at just the whole project cost, not just upfront CapEx you can see how much the use cases become a different kind of factor. Also we've been working with many members and banks and various financial institutions of looking at how do you model a long duration storage? And we're also showing that costs are projected to fall over 40% by 2030. As we continue to bring, more long duration storage to market as we continue to commercialise and again scale we have a lot of projects that are no longer at like the five megawatt 10 megawatt, these are gigawatt hours, and that's already demonstrating value to additional funders. If you asked me this Tom two years ago, I think it would've been really difficult to demonstrate, how long duration storage is bankable with, just, maybe 10 or 11 examples. Now we have, hundreds of examples and we have big examples. The data centres, the growing need with, power and the heat, the industrial customers ports. I mean, the whole push on electrification. If this has just completely changed the dial, I I'd like to joke that, we're no longer at the, the knife sets or the tipping point or the inflexion point. We are right here, like at, we're ready just to start like really going up that hockey stick because we have the solutions. We have, a lot of the opportunities to make the change in the markets and it's now just really motivating and energising the key decision makers that it's almost a bigger risk if they don't invest in LDES now because the costs will be even higher. And I think now we've gotten a lot more data points to demonstrate and a lot more than the customer's needs, validating how critical long duration storage is to provide long duration movement forward. And that builds on the revenue certainty that we get with the policies and the, the contracts that we're seeing go forward.

Tom Raftery: 24:03

Put those pieces together and the paradox is pretty stark. The technology risk is falling faster than the institutional risk. The hardware is increasingly proven. The harder part is getting markets, finance and grid practise to move with it. and what's been harder than expected in scaling LDES?

Julia Souder: 24:25

I think just demystifying that it's not 10 years away, it's here. I mean, just breaking down some of the barriers. And the fact that, LDES does does provide, we have technologies that can provide inertia, that can provide, the flexibility, the load falling, like all these pieces that you need to make the infrastructure work that LDES is an infrastructure class. I think it's just a cultural mindset. I think tech, terminology and then I think it's just a trust piece. As grid operators start to, play with this more and understand how it's operating on their system and get comfortable with long duration storage. Now we have deployed projects up and running and there's data to prove that there's value in long duration storage. I think now that we're at this part where there's a lot more information and trust being built, I think this will really help deploy long duration storage faster. Especially because this long just one country. This is a global phenomenon where as we continue to address, the constraints of time, how does long duration storage provide the flexibility become a, huge asset.

Tom Raftery: 25:22

And you personally, where have you changed your mind over the last few years?

Julia Souder: 25:27

That's a great question. I'm still motivated and passionate as ever about the critical role of long duration storage. I think some of the realities of just how hard this is in some areas just because of the layers of either bureaucracy or traditional concept that we're really trying to modernise or even just leapfrog or evolve. And I think it's just removing some of the biases. I've been so inspired by many countries whether it's in, in East Asia or on the African continent or South America, even in like rural communities, US and Europe. It's the, the conversations have changed and I think it's just great to see there's so much innovation around the policies and the connective tissue, what a long duration storage can provide.

Tom Raftery: 26:11

Okay. And looking 3, 5, 10 years ahead, what does real progress look like?

Julia Souder: 26:17

I, I think a 10 year is difficult to do. I like to think of lots of different scenarios, but I think the next, few years we will see more demand for long duration storage. We will see more needs for policy adaptions. We will see more creative interventions to really push us forward and we'll see more collaborations that really show that we're working on this whole concept of time. And I think this is exciting just to see how we use our collective, brain power and, and working collaborative systems to make a difference. So I'm excited to see in the next few years that we really do have a different energy infrastructure that is providing value.

Tom Raftery: 26:55

Alright, time now, Julia, for the lightning round. So couple of quick questions, one sentence answers if possible.

Julia Souder: 27:04

Okay.

Tom Raftery: 27:05

first up, what matters more, lowest cost or lowest lowest risk?

Julia Souder: 27:11

You can have both if you have the right formula. Because it's not just, it's just not the cost of power, it's the the power of time I'd say as well.

Tom Raftery: 27:23

Okay, good. And what's the biggest myth about storage?

Julia Souder: 27:27

That long duration storage is not available, and it is

Tom Raftery: 27:31

Okay.

Julia Souder: 27:33

come buy it today. Yeah.

Tom Raftery: 27:34

What should governments stop doing?

Julia Souder: 27:37

Governments should stop looking at different silos of needs and start looking at the collective infrastructure and how long duration storage can provide a solution.

Tom Raftery: 27:48

And what should utilities learn faster?

Julia Souder: 27:53

utilities are in a really hard place because they're trying to maintain grid reliability at the same time having a whole new world pushed upon them. And I think if there could be two steps forward from both the utility side and two steps forward from all of those asking for changes finding a way to build a bridge quicker with a little bit more trust to both sides. It's hard when you have cultural clashes, but I think what's exciting is that there are doors that are being opened for discussion. So my ask would be can we walk through those doors a a little bit quicker with some trust on both sides so that we can build the infrastructure we need in less than 10 years.

Tom Raftery: 28:27

Light lightning round.

Julia Souder: 28:29

I know. Sorry, I'm long duration in stores. It's can go for days. Come on. Seasons, weeks. That's funny.

Tom Raftery: 28:39

next one,

Julia Souder: 28:40

Okay.

Tom Raftery: 28:41

Power or heat, which is more overlooked?

Julia Souder: 28:47

Depends on the country. I'd say heat and then power.

Tom Raftery: 28:53

Right and complete this duration is the difference between what.

Julia Souder: 28:59

I think time and money. Duration is the difference between time and money.

Tom Raftery: 29:04

Alright, cool. That's the end of the lightning round. Now I have a left field question for you.

Julia Souder: 29:10

Love it. Bring it on.

Tom Raftery: 29:12

Okay. If you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional a champion for long duration energy storage, who would it be and why?

Julia Souder: 29:26

It would be the Avengers because I love Marvel movies, and I just think that when you bring the whole group together, that is the characteristic of long duration storage. You've got, you've got Tony Stark and you've got like all these gadgets and all these things, but you've got Thor and you've got like, then the, you've got Captain America and you have the humility and just kind of the power. I just think like this wonderful group and then if you include like the broader group of Ant Man and you've got like the, captain Marvel, it's just this amazing, inspiring group of leaders with different values that they bring to this collective group that I think just really epitomises the value of long duration storage.

Tom Raftery: 30:01

Excellent. Fantastic. Julia, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I had or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Julia Souder: 30:15

I think there's just one thing I wanna come back to that I said at the very beginning is just I think the importance of time. I mean, time is a precious commodity for all of us, and I think that's also why as we're living through this whole energy transition in general, just we're all, our world is evolving to we really need to know how to price time. And I think in the markets, and I think this is something that is a really interesting component to work with partners on. That would be exciting to see how we price time with utilities and policy makers. And, it's interesting the data centre conversation is starting to look into this and how can we really demystify the role of long duration storage. I get asked a lot, oh, long duration storage, when is it gonna be ready? And I'm like, no, it, it is ready. We need the markets to be ready. And I point to the UK cap and floor. I point to deals like what New Energy did with Meta or, Rio Tinto with Rondo or Form with Excel, Google. I also like to point out that it's not a future ecosystem. It's a present one waiting on the, on the market rules to catch up. So we, at the Long Duration Energy Storage Council, we work to fill that gap and we're turning in long duration storage solutions. Not just from the, great components and the value they add, but to real infrastructure. Whether it's on islands and communities, community centres, off grid or on grid. I think this is what's really exciting and look forward to working with everybody on, on how to make this become a benefit and reality in, your community.

Tom Raftery: 31:37

Fantastic. Great. That's been really interesting. Julia if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Julia Souder: 31:47

I'd go to our amazing website where you can get lots of great information and it's www.ldescouncil.com and that's LDES. So, and we have a lot of great reports that are there.

Tom Raftery: 31:59

Julia, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Julia Souder: 32:02

Tom, thank you so much. Love that we're both wearing our hats to enjoy the, the summer or winter, wherever you are in the world. But again, thank you so much for the opportunity and for always the wonderful challenging questions to make us think outside the box to, help bring more new ideas forward. So thanks again for the opportunity and look forward to working with you.