Prof Stephanie Bertels: 0:03

So if global greenhouse gases need to drop by half by 2030 and if they need to get down to net zero by 2050, then what is it that as an organisation you need to start putting in place now in order to be able to be on a trajectory to actually get that?

Tom Raftery: 0:22

Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, wherever you are in the world, this is the Climate 21 podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practises and climate emissions reductions. And I'm your host, global vice president for Tom Raftery. Climate 21 is the name of an initiative by SAP' to help our customers calculate, report and reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. In this Climate 21 podcast, I would showcase best practises and thought leadership by SAP', by our customers, by our partners and by our competitors if their game in climate emissions reductions. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast in your podcast app of Choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi everyone. Welcome to the Climate 21 podcast My name is Tom Raftery with SAP. And my special guest on the show today is Stephanie. Stephanie, welcome to the show. And would you like to introduce yourself?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 1:19

Sure, thanks, Tom. I'm Stephanie Bertels, a professor at Vancouver at Simon Fraser University's Beedie School of Business. And for the last decade, I've been leading a global public benefit research project called The Embedding Project. We help companies embed sustainability across their operations and decision making. So we partner with companies around the world in a range of industries to understand what's holding them back. And then we develop tools to help them do their part to advance sustainability. And so it's really awesome to be able to talk to you today about climate goal setting and the work that you're trying to do on understanding what companies are doing to try and advance the climate agenda.

Tom Raftery: 2:01

Indeed. Thank you. And what are you a professor of?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 2:04

So I am a professor of sustainable business and I'm the director of our Centre for Corporate Governance and Sustainability.

Tom Raftery: 2:11

Perfect. Superb. Tremendous. So thank you for coming on the show.

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 2:15

Well, thanks for having me. Yeah.

Tom Raftery: 2:19

Tell me tell me a little bit more about why you think climate change matters. I mean, I know why it matters to me personally. And I'm a biologist by training. So, you know, I know a lot about ecosystems and stuff, although it left all that years ago to go to technology. But what is it about climate change that that you think is most important to? Why is it important?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 2:41

Well, I think it's important to start with the idea that there is now almost universal agreement that climate change as a phenomenon is is real, it's global. The consequences of it are severe. They're intensifying. And it's also important to recognise that we really understand that humans are the driving force, and that's through emissions of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, methane, but also through things like deforestation and changes to land use. And so if we look back over, we have ice cores going back eight hundred thousand years and we can see that the Earth has typically regulated its climate back and forth within a particular zone. And starting in the 1950s, we start to see that we are now moving out of that zone. And so while there has been variability over time, not to the extent that we're seeing starting to pass through 1950s and then nineteen eighty eight, which is the year that we saw the International Panel for Climate Change come out and say that there was an issue that they were that they were seeing that this trend was going in the wrong direction. So the Earth has typically regulated its climate through carbon sinks. They absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, the largest carbon sinks. So the world's ocean, but also its soil and its plant life. And so we're starting to see some really unsettling trends. For instance, there are huge amounts of carbon dioxide and methane that are stored in these frozen deposits in the ocean floor that we call hydrates. And because the ocean temperatures have been warming, we're starting to see that these hydrates are beginning to melt. And so they're releasing methane and that's not good news for our planet. And so the thing is, when we bring it back to business is that climate change comes with both physical risks and transition risks. And on the physical risks side, we see that extreme weather events can cause really significant business disruption. So it can be that your production plant is is in a coastal area and you see storm surges, or it could be that your shipping and distribution are disrupted. It can be that there are increased numbers of forest fires and that threatens your operations. It can also be extreme heat and even extreme cold. So we also see that the that there are transition risks. So we're going to need to fundamentally transition our energy and transportation systems in order to bring the emissions under control. And many businesses still don't have a concrete plan in place for what that's going to look like and what that's going to mean in terms of their own transition to their core business strategy. So together, these two risks the physical risks and the transition risks. They make climate change a systemic risk for the whole financial sector. And so what we see is that when you bring these risks together and we've been able to understand those risks better through the Task Force for Climate Related Financial Disclosure. So that was a group put together through the Financial Stability Board to really start to understand what those risks could look like. So if I back up a little bit, you know, Mark Carney, he was one of the first to kind of look at the financial meltdown that we had in 2007 and 2008 and to start to ask himself what might be the next big risk for the financial sector. And one of the ones that he was concerned about was the impact of climate change and so through this working group from the Financial Stability Board, they came up with the task force for climate related financial disclosure, and the idea is that companies should be disclosing the physical and the transition risks that they have related to climate change. And they do that through modelling different scenarios. And so as a result of that, we've been able to see that there are risks that ripple throughout the global markets. And that means that climate change is going to affect all businesses no matter their industry or their geography, and no business will be immune.

Tom Raftery: 7:41

OK, and I mean, what what can or what should businesses do about that?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 7:48

Well, I think the first thing for a business to think about doing, if they haven't already done so, is to do some of that scenario modelling. So they need to take a look at what the impacts would be on their business and more broadly, their value chain. So what's the impact on their suppliers and what's the impact on their customers and in terms of their customers decision making? And then they need to start to understand and break down what those physical risks in this transition risk could look like for them. And then they also need to really think about what the physical risks and the transition risks are amongst the the businesses that they depend on transportation and and in their supply chain and start to put in a plan for how quickly do they need to act. So if global greenhouse gases need to drop by half by 2030, and if they need to get down to net zero by 2050, then what is it that as an organisation you need to start putting in place now in order to be able to be on a trajectory to actually get there?

Tom Raftery: 9:27

OK. And you mentioned that the the embedding project is looking at the goals that organisations are setting for themselves. What is it about these goals that you that you look at and. How do you decide, you know, the priorities and whether they're credible or not?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 9:50

Yeah, so when we're looking at goals and we look at climate goals, but in fact, we look at a broad range of environmental and social and even governance goals. But on the climate side, and really for all the goals, we're asking the question. Is the company doing their part to ensure the resilience of the system, so are you actually going to be operating in alignment with maintaining or even in some cases trying to enhance the resilience? And so what that means is, is in the case of climate, are you setting a goal in alignment with greenhouse gas emissions dropping by half by 2030 and getting down to net zero before 2050? Because without sweeping efforts to reform our economies and bring our emissions down, we are simply going to overwhelm the planet's ability to recover. And the IPCC modelling has shown us that to avoid the worst climate impacts, we need to limit global average temperature increases to one point five degree trajectory. And so the question then for a company is, are you doing your part as a business, both in terms of your own operations and by working with your value chain to ensure that we're on track to prevent catastrophic outcomes? And so in this climate space, there's been a lot of talk about setting science based targets. And that means companies need to be setting their goals in alignment with climate science, which, as I said, tells us that that means reaching net zero emissions well before 2050. So when we're looking at goals, we're looking at a few things. We're really looking at the goal that you said if you said it in relation to a target. But we're also really looking for transparency in your disclosure. So we want to know, have you been really transparent in the assumptions that you're using in setting your goal? And the reason we think that's important is because other companies in your industry or other companies in your in the value chain may not have as much understanding as you do about how to set these goals. And we think that it's really important. And that's why we tried to create this database. And the repository is to be able to demonstrate what does it look like to set a goal, but also for your stakeholders and rights holders that you interact with, for them to really be able to interrogate those goals and and ask whether they have a good sense of whether they think they are really on track. And so the second piece of that is, are you regularly reporting on your progress against your goals? And when you're not making that progress, are you shifting those goals to make sure that you're still going to stay on track?

Tom Raftery: 12:43

OK, and this database that you have of these goals is available online for everyone to see.

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 12:51

Yeah. So we decided to release it publicly, as we do with with really almost everything that we produce. And so I should maybe explain that it's a public benefit research project because a large part of our funding comes from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada. And Sherk, as it's called, has a really strong commitment to knowledge mobilisation. And so when they provide funding, they really want to see that funding go to produce knowledge that's readily accessible to anyone. And so the database is available on embeddingProject.org/goals. And what we really hoped that companies would do with it is that they can then start to benchmark their goals against other goals. And so if companies are thinking that they're going to start setting a goal or if it's time to readjust their goal and this year, 2020 is, you know, is a year in which many businesses are coming back. There were a lot of goals set five years ago or 10 years ago with this vision, 2020 sort of theme. And now we're entering the new decade of change aligned with the Sustainable Development Goals. And a lot of companies are starting to think about what their 2030 goal would look like. And on the climate side, if you want to be aligned, then a 2030 goal looks very much like trying to reduce your emissions by at least 50 percent by the end of the decade. And so we realise that companies really needed to see examples of good goal setting. There was a whole period of time where there was a lot of talk about setting ambitious goals. But the problem is that ambitious goals haven't gotten us as far as we needed them to. And so the emphasis that we're now putting on is setting credible goals. And so companies can think about looking, they can look and see what other companies are doing to align to do their part. And you can search the database based on issue, you can search it based on sector, even whether the goal relates to your company's direct operations, its value chain, or whether it's what we call an influence goal. And that means that the company is working with others in the industry or in the communities where they operate to try and bring about positive systems change. And we're really transparent in the criteria we use to select goals. And then we also provide stable links to the data that we take from each company's website. And so on the climate side, you'll see that most of these goals are science based targets. You can certainly see those goals on the Science based Targets Initiative website as well. But this database, I think, is still quite a compliment because it provides a bit of additional information. We tend to profile companies that are very transparent about how they went, about setting their goal and the assumptions they used in setting them. And so I hope through doing that that this helps raise the bar in credible sustainability goal setting.

Tom Raftery: 16:06

OK, very nice. And if I am a company who is setting goals, do I need to contact you for you to then assess my goals and put them into the embedding project? Or how does that work? How how do you decide which companies to include or not?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 16:24

Yes, so as a company, you're welcome to contact us and we would be happy to take a look at the goals. We actively every month, in fact, every couple of weeks in some cases where we're updating the database. So we're constantly looking for goals. We have thousands of companies that we regularly monitor. We have a sense of of the regular reporting cycle, but we are seeing companies now make independent announcements. So we're always on the lookout for goals that are coming out. And we have a rhythm of going through because it's not just climate goals that we look at. We look at goals related to biodiversity and land use or water or human rights and modern slavery. We even have have goals and they're related to commitments around pandemic's or around justice, equity, diversity and inclusion and black lives matter. So, you know, it's it's an ongoing process and we're actively looking for them and we have a commitment to keep doing that. But absolutely, if your goal is not in there, you're welcome to reach out to us. And information is available on the website. And it doesn't mean, though, that we're necessarily going to list the goals. So we're not listing every goal that every company has set. We're really looking for the best examples of of companies that are being very transparent and that are really a good exemplar for other companies on the kind of approach that they could take.

Tom Raftery: 17:59

So if I'm starting out on this journey, I should have started ten years ago or 20 or 30. But if I am starting out in this journey today, the embedding project site is a great place to go. You're going to say for people to find really good goals, really good examples of goal setting.

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 18:15

Yeah, exactly. And and certainly we do have some goals in there that are coming from smaller organisations as well, obviously, because the bigger companies have been reporting for a lot longer. There is is kind of an emphasis towards the bigger international companies. But we also have resources there to help companies think about how to set goals to how to go about the process of setting goals. And we explained some of the key concepts. We also have a big, we call it the resource wheel we have a big resource wheel on on that helps companies on a whole bunch of different practises on how they might want to embed sustainability. So whether that's embedding it into your risk function or into your brand and communications and the stories that you tell. So it's just, again, all free. So these are also maybe some great resources for companies that are just starting out or even ones that are well on the journey, but are looking for some inspiration in where to take their efforts next.

Tom Raftery: 19:19

Spectacular. And you're looking at all these goals over a number of years and presumably a number of years into the future. What kind of trends are you seeing in those goals?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 19:30

Yeah, so I mentioned the science based targets initiative. So we're talking about climate goals, especially that said that there is some work going on right now to try and think about taking a science based approach with respect to a number of other issues like water and biodiversity and ecosystems. And so there's some great work being undertaken by WWF and WRI and SBTI. And others, but when we start to look at the trends going on in climate goal setting, it's been really quite amazing over the last year, the changes that we've been seeing. So I know that there's been a lot of concerns out there that with everything going on that maybe companies are going to be pulling back from this. But in fact, I think that this whole conversation about business resilience really has just amplified companies understanding that that climate risk is real and that climate risk is something that that boards need to be addressing and that they need to demand that management actually have a credible goal of how they're going to respond and a credible strategy for how to get there. So we've seen that companies really, from a broad range of industries, have been committing to do their part to address the climate crisis. In the last few months, we've seen some pretty significant developments. So early in the year, Microsoft announced a commitment to capturing carbon equivalent to what it calculates is all of the carbon it has emitted since it was founded in nineteen seventy five. So the thing I think that was really interesting about this goal was when it first came out, I think there was there was some scepticism in terms of people understanding what the goal meant. And what was really well done by Microsoft is they had this video already and this is what I'm talking about, being transparent with your assumptions. They already had this video that they created. It was animated. It helped people to explain the concept of historical emissions, but they also had a plan for how they were going to get there and an A and a companion goal of a billion dollars of investment to actually think about how they're going to help make that happen. And so as a result of that, it's been really great because now we're seeing other companies who are also starting to make historical emissions pledges. And I think this is really important, especially for four companies and the sort of, you know, Western European and, you know, in the developed north, because many companies really have have developed and generated their revenue and gotten where they have on the back of historical carbon emissions. And so from a climate justice perspective, if we're thinking about comparing companies in developing nations in the global south and and their need in order to also develop help with the development of those economies, we have to think about who over the next half decade really gets to use the remaining part of that carbon budget. So another key trend has been this idea of starting to move together as an industry or as a group of companies, because we always hear that that companies talk about climate being a global issue, the need to make changes in industries and that they can't, as one company, come out and set really aggressive goals and targets if if the rest of the industry is not going to come along. And so that has been for many years, really a reason why some of these goals haven't haven't moved forward. And so we've seen some really interesting things lately. So we talked about the financial sector with the task force for climate related financial disclosure. And I think that that has really rippled through the banks and then more broadly into insurance as well. And so it's been really neat to see. A number of years ago, we saw the UN principles for Sustainable Insurance come out. And then now more recently, we've seen the launch of the UN Principles for Responsible Banking. And as part of that or is connected to that, we've seen several of the global banks that have announced a collective commitment to climate action, and that is different from just setting a goal related to their direct operations. So I'm going to buy carbon credits or I'm going to make sure that I'm using renewable energy to power my my headquarters and my retail banks. But instead, this goal actually focuses on aligning their portfolios with financing the transition to a low carbon, climate resilient economy. And so at the end of September, for instance, we saw Morgan Stanley, which frankly, is a company that historically provided considerable capital to the fossil fuel industry. Like many, many financial institutions have, they became the first major bank to promise to reach net zero financed emissions by 2050. And now we're seeing a whole number of other financial institutions come out to do the same. And so we also saw this in the airline sector. So the One World Alliance, which is 13 global airlines, they decided to come together and unite behind a common target to achieve net zero carbon emissions by 2050. And so they were the first global airline alliance to do so. And so I guess the the last thing I would mention is that we're also seeing the time frame on climate commitments to accelerate. So I think two or three times during this podcast already I've talked about the idea of greenhouse gas emissions needing to drop by half by 2030 and get down to net zero before 2050. But there's also been a recognition that if we wait that long, that would still mean that the most vulnerable people in the world are going to experience the most extreme effects of climate change. And so I think that there's been a recognition by a number of NGOs, but also now a number of companies that there is an urgency to take action as quickly as possible. And I think there's also maybe a recognition by some of the larger companies that, as you mentioned, the that there are many companies that are much further back on this trajectory and haven't set those goals. And so if we're really going to get there, the biggest companies and some of the biggest emitters are going to have to really kind of double down and really get to getting on this. So Amazon, in partnership with others, has launched the corporate climate pledge. And this is a case where companies agreed aim for net zero by 2040. So that's 10 years ahead of the Paris agreement target. And the idea is to try and create that urgency. And if you think about it, that's that's 20 years from now. So that basically means we're committing to get down and get going on this immediately. And the idea that we would transition our economy so fundamentally in 20 years is, of course, going to be a big issue around climate justice of who is going to be the beneficiaries of that and and who will who will really start to pay the price. And certainly we see that in in the recovery efforts that we're seeing from from the pandemic. People keep describing this as a case shaped curve where some people are doing really, really well and some people are doing increasingly poorly. And I think that that is only going to be compounded when we start to layer on all the changes that are going to need to happen in order to transition our economy. And so it's going to become really important for companies in their climate goal setting that they also start to recognise the climate justice component of this. And so when we look at the companies that are signing on to do this, they've talked about doing this through business change and innovation. And I know this is totally the whole point of your podcast, which is amazing. So in some cases, that's going to be radical efficiency improvements. In some cases that's going to be complete, in many cases, a complete transition over to renewable energy. In many cases, that's going to be around materials reductions and a whole host of other carbon emission elimination strategies. But we're also seeing a lot of work and and globally, this is being led by the the World Wildlife Foundation, which is around nature based solutions. So companies are turning to nature and thinking about how they could use nature as kind of a carbon sink. But I think if we go back to what I said at the beginning of the podcast around the oceans, we we really need to recognise that a huge percentage of the world's emissions are regulated by the world's oceans. And so we can we're not going to renewable energy. And planting a bunch of trees will not be the complete solution to what we need to do, because the oceans have acted for so long as these huge carbon sinks and they do a whole bunch of things. One is that they they take in all the excess heat. Another is that they take in that carbon dioxide and they convert it. And and also we've we've had years, just like we've been tapping into the carbon dioxide of a millennia through fossil fuels. There are all these hydrates that are sitting below the ocean. And it's interesting because years ago. We were looking at how as a society, we were starting to look at how we could potentially tap into those hydrates as a fossil fuel source. I mean, thank goodness we didn't develop the technology to do that. Right. But, I mean, we were looking at it. And then there was then there was the reverse of that is could we take carbon dioxide that we have in the atmosphere and could we try and inject them into those hydrates in order to to try and hold them there? But because now we've seen this ocean warming over time, we now are in the space where we're starting to see those hydrates release. And a lot of those hydrates are methane. Methane is 20 times more potent, more of a more potent as a greenhouse gas. And so as a result of that, you know that that can potentially create quite a problem for us. So I think that it becomes really important to think about when companies are setting their targets, that that they have a clear sense of that underlying climate dynamic and that it's that it's not just a simplistic target. So often we see companies commit to a target, but their backup plan is if we don't do this, then we're just going to buy offsets or we're going to buy emission credits. And the reality is there just aren't going to be enough of those credits to go around. And if we're relying on that, then I don't think that that we're going to get there. And so I think the last thing that I've seen that's interesting in in goal setting is that companies are starting to be a lot more explicit about that. And so, for instance, Wal-Mart's recent pledge to hit zero emissions from its global operations by 2040 is explicitly a pledge to do so without using carbon offsets. And I want to be clear, I'm not vilifying carbon credits and carbon offsets. Look, it's going to be a really, really important part of the equation. But I think it's it's it's really crucial that companies have a plan for how they're going to get there that isn't entirely reliant on that or significantly reliant on that.

Tom Raftery: 32:09

Sure, sure. Sure. So two final questions, first, as a professor in the University of Sustainability, are you seeing an uptick in interest in students in the topic?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 32:23

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, a decade ago when I was teaching in the business school, you'd have a handful of people that in a class that thought this was really interesting. And this has been the class they've been waiting for, for the whole semester or even for the programme. But you had a significant set of people that were really sceptical about why they even had to take a class like this. So as of you, we've had mandatory classes in core courses in sustainability for decades, which is much earlier than than a lot of other organisations. And so it was a tough slog and a lot of the. A lot of the early work was really on helping do that translation of what this means for business strategy, why there's a business case for doing this work, how this would present a potential business disruption risk. But I think for people, the time frame was was still really long. People just weren't really understanding how it is going to be relevant in the short term to them. And we've seen a huge shift in that conversation. So over the last decade that's gone to that ratio is completely reversed. Now, you know, well over 95 percent of the students that are that are coming into the class recognise that this is really important and urgent there. They are so excited to get into this class because they're really eager to think about what role they can play in the energy transition. And they see that being a part of this transition is the root for them in terms of their career, that this is this is the critical business challenge that they as leaders are going to need to navigate and that they want the tools and the understanding in order to be able to do that. And so that's that's exciting. And, you know, I even teach in programmes where we we deliver programmes specifically for business. So we SFU delivers an executive MBA programme for Tech Resources, which is our Canada's largest integrated mining company. And there you're dealing with mine, superintendants with with managers, with directors across their operations. And so, for instance, my colleague Elisa Amin, who who runs our innovation class and is a world leader in commercialisation of technology, she took them through a process to help them to try and think about business innovations. She never asked them to deliver on their sustainability goals. Every single business innovation that they came up with related to trying to deliver on a sustainability goal. So then they then came into my class and the biggest thing that they were struggling with was the capital allocation piece. And this is, I think is what many companies are struggling with. How do you translate these these innovations that, you know, need to be done? How do you get them into your capital allocation process and account for the value that's generated from delivering on environmental and social objectives? And so that's the work that we've been doing together to try and think about how they can and other companies as well can start to amend that capital allocation process. So to me, you know, to return it to the climate goals conversation is we're seeing some some really interesting commitments and goals also coming out from companies about how you push this into your decision making and how you will make decisions that are different than the decisions that you've made before. And that's where that announcement that I mentioned coming out of the UN principles for responsible thinking and the collective commitment to climate action from the financial sector becomes so incredibly important because as we see banks set goals to really align their portfolios with financing the transition, that's where we're going to see that reallocation of capital. And you'll you'll see businesses being able to make the case that the ROI on a particular project is different because either going the the route that they're currently going is going to incur a higher cost of capital or being able to switch is going to is going to give them a lower cost of capital because they're going to be able to access capital that's that's advantageously priced because it's in alignment with the financial institutions goal of trying to make the climate transition. And so I think that becomes such an important part of the puzzle of how we're all going to move this forward together.

Tom Raftery: 37:15

It's an incredible lever money. Last question. Are you optimistic?

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 37:22

I think you can hear from my voice that I am optimistic. I mean, I think those of us who work in this space, we go in waves. But frankly, it has been to me, it's been a really interesting year. For a number of reasons. One is these goals that are coming out and and the recognition of the connexion between climate and climate justice, this movement by industries to realise that these are that they have to move together. So I think that we're finally seeing that moving together. Do I have some scepticism about. Whether companies are going to actually be able to. I don't know. I'm trying to think of the right metaphor, corral the horses, I don't know to actually do this. I think it's you know, it's a tough conversation around how you change your fundamental risk matrix, how you change your underlying procurement processes, how you really start to move as a company to thinking about not cost and not even total cost of ownership, but but total value of of of ownership or even just total value. Right. Because as we move towards different models and products, changing to services in order to companies, be able to to better keep track of their own stuff and, you know, bring things in a in a more circular way, we we really need a different set of metrics. And there are lots of efforts that that are going into trying to do that. It's just I think we can't sit around waiting for those metrics to emerge because the time and pace at which we need to move is very, very urgent. So I am pleased to see and I know that you're profiling a number of them in this podcast, these efforts where companies are just saying we're going to figure it out. And I think that's the whole thing, right, is when when you have creative people, when you have engineers, creativity really loves constraint. And so the key actually starts, in my opinion, with with credible goal setting. Once we see that companies set credible goals, it creates the constraint. And as long as the businesses are and the executives and boards of those businesses are consistent in signalling that these goals are goals that need to be met, the business internally will reorganise its way to find a way to respond. And I've seen that and the the last piece that. So then it comes down to the board and it comes down to the executive teams. And so the last piece that makes me hopeful is the number of organisations that have reached out to us, the number of directors or board chairs that have reached out to us because they've found the database or they've seen the work that we're doing and and they want to have a conversation about what it's going to look like to to set a credible goal or to develop a credible strategy. And and that's been both overwhelming, but also really exciting, because to me, that is what gives me hope is to see these conversations happening at that level.

Tom Raftery: 40:50

Super, super, super. That's all fantastic. That's, you know, a note of optimism. It's always a good way to end. So it's definitely that's been really fantastic. Thanks a million for joining us on the podcast today.

Prof Stephanie Bertels: 41:02

Well, thanks for having me. And I'm really excited to listen to the other podcasts that come.

Tom Raftery: 41:08

OK, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks, everyone, for listening. If you'd like to know more about Climate 21, feel free to drop me an email to Tom Dot Raftery at SAP dot com or connect with me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to subscribe to it on your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find a show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.