Tror Carter: 0:03

Everyone's got this fundamental longing like I want to build, do something for this planet. And I don't know what it is. And I feel powerless. Like, I can't stop buying plastic from the grocery store because that's all they're selling me. I can't stop driving my car because I don't have an alternative. You know, I feel trapped in the way systems are given me. So we need to give everyone on Earth a meaningful way to engage with the climate crisis.

Tom Raftery: 0:30

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening wherever you are in the world. This is the climate 21 podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practices in climate emissions reductions. And I'm your host, global vice president for SAP Tom Raftery. Climate 21 is the name of an initiative by SAP to allow our customers calculate, report and reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. In this climate 21 podcast, I would showcase best practices and thought leadership by SAP, by our customers by our partners on by our competitors if their game in climate emissions reductions. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast in your podcast app of choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Climate 21 podcast. My name is Tom Raftery, with SAP and with me on the show today I have my special guest, Troy. Troy, would you like to introduce yourself?

Tror Carter: 1:26

Well, thanks for having me, Tom. So very briefly, my name is Troy Carter, I'm the CEO and one of the co founders of a company called Earth shot labs, or shot Labs is doing a couple things. I probably don't need to convince anyone on this podcast that there's a climate crisis. And there's also a crisis of multiple systemic collapses in ecology in pretty much every category, in insects, in birds, in wildlife of all sorts in the oceans. And these are some of the deep underlying issues that are also undermining like the source of real wealth for people all around the world. And so what are shot Labs is doing is using the financial mechanisms that are being developed to address the climate crisis. So carbon markets, and also a ability to measure the globe at scale and do carbon verification at scale and landowner recommendation that scale to actually go address our relationship as a species to the rest of nature, and sort of do what we should have been doing already, which is being in relationship with all other species on the planet. And so to that end, we're doing a couple of things. And jumping a little bit ahead of here and just don't go into what we're doing. The first is over the last year and a half, we've built an open source coalition that we've actually just spun out as a nonprofit called the earth shot Institute. And the earth shot Institute is holding an open source model, so an ecological simulator of the entire planet so that we're able to more accurately measure what's actually going on on the ground. So measuring ecological state, in terms of carbon in terms of biodiversity, health of water cycles, soil health, and many, many other ecological factors. We believe that this is a public good that this is something that we need to reach scientific consensus on rather than sort of being sort of our intellectual property that we can measure things better than other companies. So so many different academic institutions and NGOs are participating in that. So step one measurement, if we can measure ecological state better than we can incentivize for it on a policy level, landowner and investment level. Step two, is a product that we're calling Lando s. And lendo s is exactly what it sounds like. It's an operating system for land, where anyone on Earth can go click on their parcel, or a government official can go click on their country or region and learn a lot about what's going on on their land, and then what to go do. And then it simulates different interventions over time. So I want to do a little reforestation here, here's how I can support the water cycle by building Beaver Dam analogs, I'm gonna do agroforestry here, I want to reach a particular policy level goal. And it will create a simulation that also shows how to make money off your ecological or climate goals. And one of the easiest and most scalable mechanisms we have for directing payments to land owners or governments right now is through carbon markets and these have been very nascent. Like they're changing rapidly. Right now. Demand is skyrocketing as companies are realizing that they need to sort of get ahead of the curve for becoming net zero. And governments also realizing, hey, we need to incentivize landowners to turn the ship around. And so we're creating a way for every landowner to participate in carbon markets and markets for ecosystem services. And then a way for corporations governments and philanthropies to actually put money in the system. So that's Lando less, it'll become much more broad over time as we introduce other ecological interventions other than avoided deforestation and reforestation, which is what we're focusing on now. That's already a lot. The third thing that we're doing is operations. So realizing, hey, you know, we really just, we didn't want to just be a new software company with a bunch of sort of armchair scientists and software engineers sitting in San Francisco, saying we're saving the world. So like, there are so many unintended consequences and perverse incentives that get introduced once we start incentivizing something at this scale. So we're doing on the ground projects, starting out in Panama, and Brazil, and have projects starting all over the globe in 2022, to do reforestation, and build an operationally scaled organization with, with land stewards onboarding, in hopefully every country in the world. And that's in a way to like, just keep us humble, like this is a complex issue. And we don't know how to best address these solutions. And usually, the person on the ground is the one that actually knows how to best interact with their place. And so we can actually learn from that and actually solve the parts of the solve the parts of the equation that can only be solved at scale around financing, around legal structure around sales to international corporate buyers, and then leave a lot of the logistics around what species to choose, and the ceremonial protocols in which local peoples have of relating to new land restoration, and many, many different elements that are deeply important for actually addressing the root causes of climate change, rather than addressing the symptom.

Tom Raftery: 7:20

Okay. Okay. I mean, as you said, there's a lot there in those three points. The first point was around measurement, and I guess, straightaway, how are you getting those measurements? I mean, you said there are partners involved. But talk to me a little more, because you you're talking about, as you say, yourselves, planetary scale regeneration? And, you know, sure, having a scientist here, and there is great for wherever here and there is, but the planets a big place, you know, with respect to the universe, no, it's not. But with respect to you and I, and where we happen to be our little patch of earth, it's a big planet.

Tror Carter: 7:59

Yeah. So building a comprehensive global ecological simulator, we understand ecological state everywhere on Earth. It's true, that is a complex task that we've set out to do. And there are other groups working on similar initiatives. It wasn't possible a few years ago, there is way more satellite imagery today than there was even two years ago, the level of resolution, the amount of data is just skyrocketing, because of the number of satellites and the quality of satellites that are going up into space. However, space is sort of far away. And when you're looking at things from a space, like a pixel is a big chunk. And so any company that's saying, Hey, we can do this, we can we can measure carbon, all by satellite imagery. Maybe that's true in a few years, but it's not true right now. And so we can get petabytes and petabytes of satellite imagery and build a sort of global machine learning model of ecological state based on known data sets from the ground of like, this is what carbon looks like in this, you know, Hector, and so we can look at that from space, and then build a model that extrapolates across an entire landscape. So that's what we're doing now. But when you build these complex neural net architectures, and machine learning models, it turns out, garbage in and you get garbage out. So the quality of the data that we put into the model is really important. And there's literally just not enough training data to make great models yet. Okay. You know, one of the reasons you see all these self driving car, you know, tests from Tesla and Waymo, driving around streets all the time. They're building training data sets. And so that's what we're doing with a new app called biome. And biome is a smartphone app that we're going to release soon. It's It's running multiple neural nets on the iPhone, so that anyone on Earth can just walk around with their phone and scan the forest. And they do automated species detection, volumetric scans of the trees, and calculations of traditional forestry metrics, like the diameter at breast height, the height of the tree. And also in the future things like, you know, health and many other ecological measurements like acoustic biodiversity measurements. So biome is an app for, for people to become citizen scientists and actually have the data get used in a way that's crucial for our understanding of global ecology, and has a direct link to change and a policy being created, or an incentive or money going exchanging hands. And I'm going to a group that needs it. I think that's pretty cool. And, you know, two years ago, that wasn't possible, this sort of level of neural architecture wasn't developed yet, the computing power we're all carrying on the little supercomputers in our pockets. Now, that's never been done before. So this confluence of factors is making it possible for us to be able to understand ecology at a global level in a way we've never been able to before. And that is going to be able to unlock like, I'm not pretending that we are going to understand ecology better than indigenous people have understood ecology for 10s of 1000s of years. But what we can do is provide the sort of global level knowledge to be able to talk to a policymaker or investor and say, here's why this change matters. Here's why implementing this payment for ecosystem services policy in your country will have this effect at scale, it'll, you know, improve forest cover by 50%. And here's the impact that it will have to the people and to jobs and to metrics that politicians care about. And to investors who are like, okay, I can make a return. Suddenly reforestation is an investable asset class. And if I put money in, I will de risk the money, then I'll get out.

Tom Raftery: 12:13

Okay, one was gonna turn very cynical now. But I was listening to a podcast this morning on the BBC, BBC climate podcast. And they were talking about how money's flowing into some areas for reforest wealth for protecting forest areas, in the past, had the had the effect of, you know, the local people caring for the forest around them. But then going around the other side of the mountain, and using the money they receive to log the other side of the mountain that wasn't covered by how do you how do you avoid unintended consequences like that happening?

Tror Carter: 12:57

Yeah. So in carbon markets, that's a phenomenon where someone goes in and protects one forest and another forest gets cut down. And I think that's it's a good PR story. And at scale, it definitely will start to happen as you start protecting a lot of land in an area. On the short term. The factors that causes deforestation on the ground, are often different than what people think they are. And this story is an example that so we're we'll be doing reforestation projects with tribes in the Amazon over 2022 and people who are very dear to my heart. And there are very few groups who have a good relationship with land that are going around saying I think I'm going to try to I want to cut down all these trees, right because I hate trees. Nobody says that. Why are they cutting down trees they're they're cutting down trees Beasley at paid to cut down trees. Classic story in Panama is that a Chinese barge shows up on the coast and says, hey, I'll pay you $10 Give you a chainsaw. And I'll pay $10 per tree, you cut down and deliver to the deliver to the water. So we pick it up. And these trees are worth 10s of 1000s of dollars in terms of tropical hardwoods. And so very small amounts of money can have dramatic differences in the on the ground reality for people whose food security is otherwise threatened for people who don't have any other source of income, maybe who have lost their way of life and being able to relate to the forest as their primary food source. And so I'm not going to pretend that carbon markets are the single silver bullet for protecting forests. This is why most companies in this space I think there will be a lot lots of flashes in the pan. These they're dependent on a single mechanism to go around after money, and it won't be enough to reverse climate change, what will be enough is creating agroforestry systems and forest systems and land agency for people at scale that actually serves the people in a multi generational way. So they're making enough money, they're able to have food security, they're able to retain a sort of ceremonial, traditional relationship with their place in the forest, that they that they steward. And that's good. And you know, the story is maybe a bit different in very developed countries like the United States, or, you know, where the where the issues are different. Where maybe, if you pay one logging company to protect forests over here, they will find a loophole to cut down a forest somewhere else. But by and large, people love nature. And people want to see biodiversity thrive, birds, come back wildlife come back, you know, how cool is it to see a jaguar in your backyard, or a Wildcat in your backyard? Or like, it's incredible. So most of the news stories about the failures of carbon markets are usually taking isolated events. But most of them are illuminating like these systemic flaws in reducing nature to its carbon output. So I mean, fundamentally, what we're trying to do, we're trying to restore human relationship with non human nonhumans restore relationship at scale, where we're aligning incentives with carbon markets to do what we should be doing anyway.

Tom Raftery: 16:44

Okay, and how do you ensure that the money's coming into the system end up going to the right places?

Tror Carter: 16:54

That's a great question. So I won't name any governments on this podcast. But typically, what happens with like red plus payments is they go to a government, and then that money never makes it out to anyone other than some government officials. And, you know, this is how 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars get spent every year. And so our belief is that most governments are well intentioned, and some are not, or some are, just are not able to implement the policies. So what we're doing is developing a system for paying people directly Tang landowners, and land stewards who maybe don't own their land legally, but otherwise have agency over it, and paying them directly. So paying them directly on their phones, where their cash balance goes up based on the verified, like tree planting and conservation that they're doing. That will become operationally complex over time, you know, we're going from literally hundreds of voluntary carbon projects here. And what we need is more like hundreds of millions. And that's a, that's going to be a complex application to scale. So what we are doing is paying people directly in countries that it's needed in regions that it's needed, starting out in Latin America, and then going to governments and saying, Hey, you have this policy on your books that you want to do 50,000 hectares of reforestation, by 2022, or whatever it is, and we can help you achieve that policy. And if you let us we can go to the international market to corporations and other governments and multilateral agencies, solicit money on your behalf, that was typically going to the government and direct it to landowners directly, bypassing a bit of mechanisms that haven't worked because the truth is they haven't worked in markets have not worked. Red plus has not worked as a program. Voluntary. Carbon markets are super small and nascent and maybe they will start working. But most carbon is not worth buying as a credit. And so we need to introduce carbon credits that have deep benefits to people that ensures multi generational livelihoods for people that actually restores biodiverse ecosystems rather than single variety, eucalyptus for 10s of 1000s of hectares. These are some of the weird unintended consequences that we get if we reduce nature to a single variable. And that will address the real causes of this crisis.

Tom Raftery: 20:08

Okay, and talk to me a little more about Lando ask them Yeah,

Tror Carter: 20:12

so Linda was just our platform to be able to actually go do that where lens it's basically the easiest way for land stewards to onboard their land in basically all they have to know know is that they get paid for doing good things for To the planet, where they do reforestation, where they do conservation. And in the future where many, many different levels of insight about land come around water restoration around soil health around crop selection, around agroforestry, around land transactions, we see something like a $10 trillion carbon arbitrage event happening over the coming decades. If these carbon prices actually start, you know, higher carbon prices actually start being realized at scale. So who's that money going to go to? Is it going to go to Larry Fink? Who sees a great land arbitrage opportunity and really like, okay, let's just go buy up all the indigenous land in Brazil and like, go sell the carbon like, that's not the outcome that I think is optimal here. And that money or that value needs to be realized by people who are doing good work on the ground. And you know, additionality is another word that's thrown around in carbon markets a lot like additionality has to be that something that forced otherwise would not get protected. And it turns out, so we're essentially rewarding bad actors and, and not rewarding good actors. So most, like traditional peoples have, are really trying to do well for their land. And so we need to reward them for doing the right thing. So additionality can be a way to prioritize payments, because these are going to be if we actually go down the system as a civilization where we're paying people to protect nature, this is going to be hundreds of billions of dollars a year, it's going to be a large amount of money if we do this all around the earth. And we're going to be paying people that are already doing good things, sort of an ecological basic income. And additionality can be a way to prioritize who we pay first. So where there's the most leverage to make impact on the forest to have the most immediate impact on climate. So everyone benefits. But it's not a strictly necessary requirement. It's only a requirement if there's not enough money in the system to pay everyone whereby we can prioritize based on additionality.

Tom Raftery: 22:40

Okay, and Earth shot is not going to be the only player in this game. So how do you ensure that these land stewards wherever they are, be, you know, central South America, Africa, Asia, wherever? How do you ensure they're not signing up to your system, or chop plus your competitors and earning, you know, selling the same carbon three or four times?

Tror Carter: 23:10

Yeah, so this is my collaboration is important. And also why all of the data and all of the models, everything we're doing in terms of, we're sharing information. You know, this is a totally open source data and modeling project. So all the science has to be, we're reaching scientific consensus. And if we can't reach scientific consensus on how much carbon is in that particular piece of land, it doesn't have to be consensus, what it has to be is sort of like the best understanding of global academics and NGOs and companies contributing to an incomplete competing to build the best model, but sharing our best version over time, so that our understanding of the civilization of what we're doing to the planet gets better and better and better. And this is different than how other industries have developed, you know, the self driving car technology, like that's very proprietary, and no one's sharing the secrets, black boxes staying black. And here, it can't. And so any company that is building a business model around proprietary data, or proprietary models, in two years that might work in five years, it won't, because the coalition that we're building, and probably other coalition's that will start to develop, will be able to do a better job than any closed source system, where anyone can contribute their data for free, where apps like Byam will be contributing, you know, hopefully 1000s, or millions of times more training data than has ever existed on earth. Because the state of the art for collecting tree data is paying a professional consultant with a tape measure to measure a tree. That's the state of the art when we realize that we actually have like a supercomputer in our pocket and we have Lidar and we have, you know, an AR kit and you know, optical, you know, depth perception, like so many different complex ways of measuring things. So we can speed up and make collecting data cheaper than ever before. And you don't have to be a professional to be able to do that. You can just be some guy with no training and be able to collect more accurate verification data then professionals'.

Tom Raftery: 25:29

Okay, and why would I? I mean, you to get people a to download the app? I mean, I've got, like 300 and something apps, at least on my device? Why would I download? Sorry? I use about three of them. You know, why would I download my own question? And how do you make sure that, you know, after I've stopped playing with it for the first hour or so that I continue using it for five minutes a day, or 10 minutes, or 15? Or whatever it is?

Tror Carter: 26:05

Yeah, so biome. Biome isn't released yet. So we're basically still in the training phase. So that very complex neural architecture, so we're actually using it ourselves to make the model better and better bootstrapping with the app itself. But when it's released, the first use case is someone who wants to verify a Carbon Project. So on their own land, they're incentivized to go out and collect the data needed to get them paid. So it's use case one, the second is science. So you know, we have a whole Panama operation. And in gumbo, it's basically this village of like 300, PhDs and with for the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute is located. And let me tell you, every postdoc who's researching tropical forests, once a way to not do their job totally manually. And there's actually a lot of those, and there's more than you would think. So as a scientific tool for professionals to go collect field data. And then as a citizen science tool, you know, we download I naturalist or these other apps, and people want to know about where they live, they want to know what species that is. And meaning is fun. You know, when you're like I am, I am doing something that is important for the world. Even if I don't get paid for it, or like, even if it's like only marginally fun, like a lot of people still want to do that. Like, everyone's got this fundamental longing, like I want to be able to do something for this planet. And I don't know what it is. And I feel powerless, like I can't stop buying plastic from the grocery store, because that's all they're selling me, I can't stop driving my car, because I don't have an alternative, you know, I feel trapped in the way systems are given me. So we need to give everyone on Earth a meaningful way to engage with the climate crisis. And this is, is not solving all your problems. But at least it's a way that you can make a difference. And that the the amount of difference you'll be able to make will grow over time as you release more tools more more ways for normal people to engage with this issue in ways that they've been powerless to

Tom Raftery: 28:19

get. And you've probably thought of this already. But just in case, if I might make a suggestion, I've been using Duolingo over the last number of months and their their leagues and leader leaderboards are done really, really well. And it fosters an amount of competition amongst people using it such that you know, you want to at the end of the week be at the top of the leaderboard or in the top three. So you progress on to the next League. So gamma flying it like that is probably worthwhile as well.

Tror Carter: 28:51

Exactly. Absolutely. I mean, there's gamification, which is sort of increasing virality and usage through different mechanisms that are pretty well understood by, you know, this industry, or at least the tech world. And then there's a game, which is another level, which is like, you know, the original inspiration for Pokemon Go. So my, my co founder, Patrick worked at Google with John Hankey, who developed pokemon go right. And amazing product guy, but the vision for having 100,000,010 year olds running around with smartphones in their hand, looking at nature, and being directly engaged in learning about plants and animals. Like, that's kind of cool, if that also helps address systemic collapse in ecology at the same time, like so. You know, maybe in a year we see that right now we got our hands full, just building out land at less than the basics of biome but, but like, what coming 2023 We'll look for your game developers.

Tom Raftery: 29:56

And remind me the third point again,

Tror Carter: 29:59

operations, so actual on the ground, reforestation, and maybe I can just say something about operations. It's it's about making land restoration, an investable asset class, right. And also, like humbling ourselves learning the into like, deep intimacy of land restoration of how it's actually done, and like the complicated things that go into this process. and nurseries and irrigation and species selection and ceremonial protocol and species relationships. But on a sort of systemic level, it's about, can we increase the amount of money dramatically that goes into this area. And there's a in any network effect business, which this is. There's a, there are different dynamics on each side of the market, where there's a supply side and demand side. And for us, the demand side is corporate carbon offset buyers, governments and philanthropy. So want to put money into land restorations? Also, maybe investors helping to catalyze the projects? On the supply side, it's a land owner who has to risk their livelihood where they have to make a big decision about how do I use this land? Do I put it into forests? Do I put it into cows, and then they have to actually physically go do work planting trees or building fences, or, you know, they do something. And that's intrinsically hard thing that's much harder than just like clicking a button or writing a check. And so that's where we're focusing a lot of our efforts is on the land stewardship. And there's a bit of a, in most network effect businesses, there's a bit of a cold start problem called where there's actually not enough supply to meet demand right now, there's actually not really that many great examples of really high quality, nature restoration projects that have then gone and delivered a credit and had a feedback loop where, you know, more investment, more projects, more demand more projects, where we start seeing this, this natural network effect emerge. So we need to kick start that network effect in order to reach scale. And reaching scale isn't intrinsically about us becoming awesome billionaires that like, you know, running away on jets. But it's really that scale is what is necessary. Otherwise, this hasn't worked. Otherwise, the solution isn't actually what the world needs. Because the problems is very, very large. And so in order to create scale, we needed a network that builds on itself, and an orange to build network, we need to solve the cold start problem, which means we need to go and pioneer the model for investment in reforestation, where it's very easy to go develop a Carbon Project will very easy to finance sold, develop another one, and make that feedback loop just super, super easy. And you know, carbon projects conventionally have been very hard to develop a couple years, million dollars, lots of professional consultants, you don't make that much money at the end. It's totally broken and unscalable. And so let's just solve that feedback loop. We can automate and make it self directed almost every step of the way. So make it the easiest in the world, for a Land Steward to onboard a project, go do what they need to do in terms of land restoration, ensure their own multi generational livelihood, and get paid for carbon, but also, like, have resilience based on food crops and things that they can use from the land long term. And then operations is also about scaling, adoption of technology. Like we're not strictly like, hey, every indigenous person, you need a phone to like participate in our system. But among people that want to participate, scaling and network is hard. It's like, you know, you look at Airbnb or Uber have like, they have operations everywhere. And people like you're manually signing up you there's like, this is a complex scaling problem. It doesn't just happen by itself, and like, oh, viral network effects, they just happen by themselves. No, they actually don't. It's a complex process. And so that is what Earth shot is, is growing to be even though we're very small right now we have like 20 people, certainly just raise money and like, you know, very nascent and growing, but that's where it's going. It's growing into A into an intern, like a global operations company, that is at least attempting to do something good in every country where we are.

Tom Raftery: 34:43

Nice. Okay. You've mentioned money a couple of times. So I guess I should ask, what's the business model here? You mentioned billionaires and jets and stuff. So do you see yourself in 10 years being a unicorn with your own little island somewhere or what's what's what's the what's, what's the end game,

Tror Carter: 35:02

but the end game is that the planet reaches ecological balance. And we feel really, really good about the work that we've done in collaboration with many, many other organizations in the same work, and that the actual outcome is like, there are many, many species that are thriving that weren't thriving. You know, now, and that policies and land use reflects what we know, can be an amazing outcome for the planet. That's the end game. How we get there is sort of like strategic and planning and using, you know, network effects and technology and, you know, large amounts of money from corporations and governments and individuals. But that's the end game, will this be a unicorn? Will it better be these if it's not, it means that the level of impact that we had was marginal, just sort of like every other really good NGO that has almost ever existed? There are amazing NGOs working out there. And it hasn't worked yet. Yeah. And so it's not that I fundamentally don't believe in the quality or the integrity of these organizations, but it just hasn't worked. And so we need something different. So we're just trying something different, like, let's use the tools that we know, how to bring things to scale, and see what happens. You know, it's, it's, it's not the only thing, it's not the only solution. There'll be many, many elements that are needed in order to go address crisis at scale policy, investment, scaled companies, like ours, you know, operations people on the ground, like NGOs and partners, working with landowner organizations, and, and then individual people who are like, yeah, that is a good use of land, or, you know, people who plant trees or collect that on their phones, like, it can become a coherent movement as a species to be like, we have the will to go address this crisis, and address the deeper causes of the crisis, which are economic inequality, which are sort of like racial injustice, which are reduction of land agency for indigenous peoples and theft of land. And, you know, these are deep issues. It's not like carbon markets are gonna go solve them. But we can go in the right direction as a society.

Tom Raftery: 37:45

Okay. Okay, Dre, we're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, is there any question that I have not asked that you wish I had, or any topic we've not touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of

Tror Carter: 37:59

mail, just make a plug for shot, go for it. And the plug is, I actually have never worked at a company that I felt was like a true believer in where I felt like, yeah, actually, all my energy is really aligned with the mission of this organization. And where I feel the daily experience, and the team that I'm working with, mirrors my longings as a human being like it actually, were actually a nits actually meets me. Where I most want to be where there doesn't have to be a strong separation between sort of the rest of my life that is about family and, you know, complex, intimate relationships and emotions, and, you know, nature and like all these things that are vitally important. And then work, which is making money and like to pay for the rest of life or maybe to do something marginally. But and, or so it's not like that. You know, we are as much as the impact we're trying to make out there in the world, changing ecology, changing financial systems, it's just as important that the way we do it is itself the product. And so if you want to be a part of an organization that is innovating at an organizational level, where the way we're doing it is different than the way we see other organizations doing, and especially like scaled tech organizations, like you imagine all these big tech companies like they're actually not like sole fulfilling places to work. Or maybe in rare cases they are. And so why not? Like why waste a life working at a place that doesn't touch the longing that you are actually here for? And so we're a small team right now, we can't hire everyone. But if this speaks to you, and you have domain expertise, a technical skill set or just feel like hey, I want to reach out and maybe six months down the line when we're hiring more sort of generalists or other people or hiring a lot of software engineers or hiring a lot of sort of data science and machine learning engineers and building out an amazing science team building amazing product team, building amazing sort of partnerships team. I hope And we're, we're looking and like our primary product right now is looking for allies who else is doing this? And who wants to collaborate. And from that amazing collaborations have happened. And so if you represent an organization, Corporation funder, reach out, we don't know yet where those collaborations go, but we can be pretty creative. And yeah, this is a sort of mission and speaks to what you want to bring to your organization. Just reach out. Let's Let's be friends. Nice, nice,

Tom Raftery: 41:05

lovely, dry. If people want to know more about yourself or about Earth chart, or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them.

Tror Carter: 41:15

So go to Earth shot dot ICO. And all the information will be on our websites pretty sparse right now, because we haven't done any public launches. But it'll become much more refined over the next three to six months. You can contact me or other team members there, you can sign up for the newsletter to learn more. We also have an open Slack channel for scientists and technologists interested in contributing to the global open source ecological simulator, and also a way to apply for jobs. And we'll take a look at everyone that was

Tom Raftery: 41:51

super, super dry. That's been great. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Tror Carter: 41:56

Thanks so much, Tom. Really appreciate the time.

Tom Raftery: 41:59

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about climate 21 Feel free to drop me an email to Tom raftery@sap.com or connect with me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you'd like the show, please don't forget to subscribe to it and your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast it really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.