Sounds like a job for the Department of Government Efficiency Too Uh, Once They too soon or it's still very fresh Tom. Once they get rid of the staffers that would actually work on permitting, then they're gonna realise they actually needed those employees, in order to be more efficient. So they may not realise that now, but over time they, perhaps will. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 232 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow the podcast in your podcast app of choice, so you never miss an episode. Before we get going, a huge thank you to this podcast's, incredible supporters, Jerry Sweeney, Andreas Werner, Steven Carroll, and Roger Arnold. your backing guys keeps this podcast going and I really appreciate your help. If you are not currently a supporter and you do get value from this podcast, you can help me enormously by supporting the show for as little as three euros or dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee. You just click the support link in the show notes or visit tiny url.com/climate pod. Now, what happens when a major economy starts backsliding on climate policy, but the clean energy transition barrels forward anyway? Today's guest has had a front row seat to that paradox. Chris Moyer has spent nearly two decades helping clean energy leaders, senators and climate advocates figure out how to keep making progress even when the politics get messy. Whether you're in Berlin, Bangalore, or Boston, what's unfolding in the US matters. From global clean tech investment flows, to supply chain signals and the way we frame climate action, American policy still echoes worldwide for now. In this episode, Chris lifts the lid on how climate innovators are adapting, how states and cities are pushing ahead, and why the language we use energy dominance anyone might be the key to building unlikely coalitions. It's a conversation about strategy, storytelling, and staying in the fight when the wind shifts. But before we get into that, in the coming weeks, I will be speaking to Heikki Pöntynen, CEO of Norse Power, Emily Wilkinson, who's a director at ODI, Gary Yo, who's a climate economist, and IPCC author. And Sherry Nelson, senior Director of Responsibility and Wellness for Elior North America. Back to today's podcast, and as I mentioned, my special guest today is Chris. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?? Yes. Thank you Tom. It's great to be with you. My name is Chris Moyer. I'm the president and of Echo Communications Advisors. We are a strategic communications firm based in Washington DC that works with climate advocacy organisations, with climate tech startups, with renewable energy companies to shape federal and state policies and regulations as we work towards the energy transition. And, why? As in, what got you into this? What made you wake up one morning and go, I know, I'll start Echo Communications advisors. So I started the firm about five years ago, but really what got me started on this was going back about 15 years ago at the beginning of my career. I was working for the US Senate Majority Leader at the time. Someone named Harry Reid, who is from the state of Nevada. And Nevada, as you may know, is one of the most important states for clean energy in the country. They have vast swaths of the federal land that, allow for solar and there's great geothermal resources. And I remember being with the senator in, in Las Vegas and we were visiting a solar array, and that was shortly after some really important legislation was passed back in 2009 to spur further investment in solar, wind, other clean energy sources. And throughout my career these last 15 years, it's always been part of the work that I've done working in government and politics, and always been working towards pushing policies that are better for climate and for electrifying everything and moving towards a better system. Okay. And what would you say has surprised you most in your journey these last 15 years? Well, I would say more, even more recently is seeing all the climate tech startup companies, and all the different ways they are looking at addressing climate change. It's hundreds and there's so many innovators both in the United States and outside the United States, and they're receiving some really important financial support and investment. We need to keep nurturing those because it's gonna take all hands on deck to solve the challenges and meet the goals that are being set. Reaching net zero and just finding better ways of doing things instead of just staying with the status quo. They're not all giving up and going home. Now that the new administration is after taking office? No, I think that's not the mentality of a lot of entrepreneurs anyway. They're not gonna, you know, they're, they're facing hurdles all the time and it's all about problem solving. And just because, the election didn't go the way that many would've liked they just find ways around it. So if they're really admirable in how they solve challenges and they wouldn't be in this position if they were ones to give up so easily. But there are certainly headwinds that are making their jobs a lot harder. Yeah, I mean, we talked on the intro call about this and about the very real sense of climate fatigue or even despair that's creeping in as a consequence of the, the new administration and as a consequence of what they're doing. Do you think people are right to feel despair and are there any bright spots that they should be looking at, looking out for if, they are feeling despair? Well, it's hard not to feel despair. The way the year started was an intentional shock and awe approach and really trying to throw as much against the wall, not just on climate and clean energy, but really on a lot of issues. But certainly climate is among the top targets. And whether you're talking about withdrawing from the Paris climate agreements or cutting back on energy incentives and, and trying to cancel contracts that have already been signed, there's a whole program to set up a National Green Bank, which a lot of countries have used to great effect for financing energy projects, clean energy projects. And then certainly helping with low income communities that are often left behind by private investment and green banks help to, bridge that gap that was put into place. Contracts were signed and now the current administration is attacking and trying to pull that back. There's row back of energy efficiency standards trying to get rid of energy star. I promise I'll get to some good news here, but I think it's important to kinda lay out. Context setting. Lay out the scope. You know, just staffing cutbacks at all the important agencies in the federal government, which make it really, you know, there's a brain drain, there's, there's scientists, there's people who know how things work very well. That's not easily recoverable. Offshore wind is taking a massive hit. There was a project just a few weeks ago, Empire Wind in New York that had gone through a very expensive and rigorous vetting process and it's pure politics. They're not even trying to pretend otherwise for why they're, they put a stop work order forward. And so that's under threat. and there's on and on. I won't, I won't go through every single thing that would take up the entire conversation, but I think, I think what is happening is people are adapting. The community, the clean energy climate community is adapting. There's things that we can control and things we can't control. But even just the messaging and communication about some of these existing programs about some of the progress being made in the private sector. How you talk about these issues matters quite a bit and we're seeing a lot of companies reframing to fit within the so and so energy dominance message and theme. Is that the framing we would put around it ourselves if we were in charge? No. But the reality is for the next four years, these are the folks we have to reach. They're the decision makers. And for a lot of decisions that affect how fast progress will be made. And I do wanna underscore progress will continue. It's just a matter of the pace. There's so much going on outside of federal government private investment. I mentioned the, entrepreneurs that are really doing great work. And there's enough momentum that progress will continue. The question is how fast, and we clearly need that to be as fast as possible to reach all these goals that have been set for net zero. States have really ambitious goals for 2030, for 20. You know, the year might vary, but certainly by 2050. And we need to make progress as quickly as we can, but it's trying to minimise the, the setbacks and if there's a way to talk about issues I don't think we want to talk about, global temperatures rising and climate catastrophe and the alarmist approach that's not really going to resonate with key folks at this time. But you can talk about jobs that are being created by these projects and communities, especially in more conservative areas that may support the current president. You want to talk about tax revenue? You want to talk about the United States winning the battle with competitors like China for these important industries of the future, and not just the future, but today, whether it's building battery factories or critical minerals or parts for solar panels, things like that. There's a lot that the US could be doing and is on track to do because of legislation that passed federally in the last few years. But it's at risk of being undermined and you know, there's also an effort by the current administration, or at least they talk about wanting to bring manufacturing back to the United States. Clean energy offers a great way to do that. And so there are things that are at odds with each other, with stated goals of the administration and some of their actions that undermine those goals that they have. Whether it's looking at different energy sources that could use more federal support that, have bipartisan support, whether it's again, lowering energy costs. That was a big factor in the last election is energy bills and the cost of living. There are things that decisions that will be made that will have an impact on, all of those things that are important for for everybody. And you gotta keep in mind, I guess, that although Trump has said he wants to bring back coal, clean coal, as he calls it. Economically, that's unlikely to happen just because coal is a lot more expensive now than solar, right? Yes, but he's certainly gonna try. You know, I I I, the question, one of the questions that his recent executive orders really begs is it says in in his order that coal plants that are even failing financially must remain open. And are they gonna pick up the cost of that or are they gonna put force, the private company to, to lose money on that? It just part of it is messaging. Part of it is they, do probably want to, achieve this, but there's so much working against it and it's just not practical. You mentioned cost, that's the biggest factor of course but it, it just, it's not practical, or workable even with the president putting full force behind trying to do that. Yeah. And you mentioned as well that several states have ambitious net zero goals. So there's a, a weird kind of tension there between the federal government and the, the more local state governments. How is that playing out in general, do you think? Well president Trump has tried to crack down on states and their climate laws saying that his Department of Justice, which is supposed to be independent of the president, will go after state climate laws um in court But I, the collective response from many state legislators, governors to that has been a shrug, because it doesn't seem like that's actually possible. So these states are continuing to work on their own goals and are not going to let federal government actions deter them. And if fact, they are more important, if the federal government is not going to lead on this. And so there is progress being made, and that's one of the areas that offer some, hope. Places like Massachusetts and New York and California and others. The other piece of this is that state attorneys general, they're the top law enforcement officer and they also have a consumer advocacy role, are fighting in court, the federal actions to roll back really important provisions whether it's tailpipe emissions or any number of actions that the administration has taken so far, and, you know, it takes a while for these court cases to play out, but generally we see that they're quite often very successful and they may not get the headlines that the initial announcement from the administration gets, but over time they do build up a pretty impressive win-loss record against the administration. And do you have examples of cities or states that are getting it right, regardless of the federal headwinds? A good example is Massachusetts. Just a few months ago passed a pretty comprehensive, ambitious state law that would really phase out more quickly, natural gas and set up some of these utilities to make major changes that would be critically important that they don't make on their own. And they need, they need the, push. New York has instituted what's called congestion pricing. So if you go drive a car into New York City you have to pay a toll, and what it does is reduce the number of cars and improves the air quality in the city. It's only new. The Trump administration is trying to force the city and the, the state actually to, halt that program. But they are they are keeping it going. And if I read correctly, that congestion charge, they ring-fenced money and put it into improving public transportation, right? That's right. Okay, great. You mentioned geothermal there in, in respect of Nevada, for example, not the only place, but obviously Nevada has some really good geothermal potential. It's a technology though that up until now hasn't really taken off. For a number of reasons. I gotta think. One, it's geographically bound. We mentioned Nevada because it has good resources, but not everywhere does. So it's only, it's, it's something you can only roll out in certain regions and consequently it doesn't scale. And consequently the cost of geothermal is quite high per megawatt delivered. But it seems to be for some reason recently, you'll, pardon the pun, bubbling back up to the surface again. Is that, is that your experience? Have you seen that as well? Tom, the first thing you'll learn about geothermal is that it is an industry that loves its puns. And there are plenty of them that you know, I, I would say that the industry is gaining steam, to keep, keep the puns going. And you know, the exciting thing about geothermal is, is that it provides consistent base load power. And the criticism certainly of solar and wind is that they're intermittent and geothermal has the potential to pair very well with those sources, and it doesn't require a lot of land. It's either low carbon or carbon free operations. Doesn't require much water. When you're talking about the west, water is always of significant concern, given the scarcity. And so it doesn't require much water. It takes the technology from the oil and gas industry, which means that there's a lot of know-how. There's engineers, there's geologists, there's folks who know how to drill, and they can, instead of going, fossil fuel, they can just tap into the heat beneath our feet. And it's, it's a perpetual energy source. And it's heating, cooling, electricity. You mentioned the geographic limitations. One of the exciting things is that there's advanced geothermal, which let me, you know, traditional geothermal, you have to have heat very close to the surface of the land. That's why traditionally the West in the United States, and also places like Iceland have been very very good places for tapping into that heat because the deeper you drill, more expensive it becomes, but, the exciting thing with advanced geothermal or next, next gen geothermal as they're called, and there's some different subcategories. I won't get into all the specifics of how each of them works, but the vision there is that you could have geothermal anywhere. You could drill, if you go deep enough, you will get heat. And just a matter of bringing the cost curve down for the technology, because like I said, the deeper you go the more expensive it gets and you need to be able to, make sure that you have the right tools, the right infrastructure to reach that heat. The deeper you go, it can be three to five miles below the surface but the vision, if we can get the cost curve down in significant progress is being made last few years on bringing the cost down and getting the technology right. It's very exciting and there's a ton of potential. It's a bipartisan issue in the United States. Republicans love it because it has the kind of the DNA of the oil and gas industry. And there's the real ability for workers to transition seamlessly into geothermal. And then more progressive folks like it as well because I mentioned the carbon free operations. The little to no environmental impact you can take some mines or holes that have already been drilled and and used those, so you don't even always have to drill new holes. You might have to go a little deeper, but and then the potential, again, of it being a reliable renewable source of energy that as you consider AI and everyone talks about AI and the demand for energy on data centers, let's, you know, let's see that play out a little bit more. But there's the potential to pair the geothermal plant, right, with an ai data center. And you wouldn't even have to connect to the grid necessarily, and that is a huge opportunity and advantage. I had an episode of the podcast a few weeks back with a patent lawyer called Ryan Schermerhorn. We talked about innovators finding workarounds when the climate patent fast track was killed off. Are there equivalent workarounds today when federal policies seems kind of to be stuck or breaking down or going backwards? Yes. And often that means going to a different country. It's why these policies matter, and there's, there's some legislation being considered in the United States right now that would cause some entities to invest elsewhere, but I know in the geothermal space, there is one advanced geothermal company that was able to get approvals much faster in Germany. And so they're building an advanced geothermal site in Germany that should be online later this year. And they were able to get approvals in two years. That would take at least five in the United States. And it speaks to the larger issue of permitting in the United States. That is a huge problem. I mentioned earlier legislation that was passed a few years ago, the Inflation Reduction Act. That provided generational incentives for clean energy sources and they're largely tax credits. That's great but the final stage is not passing legislation. It's actually allowing these projects to move forward. Environmental review is very important, but do you need five, six agencies doing the same thing? Do you need the over, I exaggerate a little bit there, but to make the point that there is significant duplication, and there has to be a way to streamline that. There's been some moves to streamline permitting on some federal lands, but that has to be done responsibly. One of the challenges is the, and I'll get to this a little bit more a little later in our conversation, but the local communities need to be on board, because they're often barriers for building these projects. Whether it's solar array or some other type of renewable energy project. So permitting reform is something that the Congress here has looked at doing. They came close in December of 2024, just a few months back, but were not able to strike a deal. And there's some re-emerging hope that maybe later in 2025, there could be some bipartisan opportunity to pass something that would speed up the, the permitting. Allow some of these projects to actually proceed. Sounds like a job for the Department of Government Efficiency. Too soon? Uh, Once they too soon or it's still very fresh Tom Once they get rid of the staffers that would actually work on permitting, then they're gonna realise they actually needed those employees in order to be more efficient. So they may not realise that now, but over time they, they perhaps will. No doubt. No doubt. What's the role of corporate advocacy here, Chris? Are, are companies doing enough or is this a moment to really step up? I'd say at the beginning of this Trump administration, it's been a much different story than the beginning of the first one. You had huge outcry including from Elon Musk himself after Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate Accord in 2017. He did that on day one of his term this time, and there were crickets. And so that, that speaks to a broader kind of bowing down that everyone and you've seen it from academia to a point. You've seen it from business leaders who don't wanna get on his bad side and there's real fear of retribution. But I, I think there also is room to speak out on things that are important to, to you, your business, to society. And we are seeing specifically when it comes to legislation, the companies that stand to lose the most from repealing of tax credits or phase out of tax credits, whether it's solar executives, wind executives you know, hydrogen carbon capture, all the different affected industries. They're advocating for this legislation to stay in place. but, you know, there's been largely not as many voices and not as loudly speaking out as they could be. For people who are listening who are feeling overwhelmed or discouraged. What's one thing they could do today to keep pushing for progress, whether in their company, their community, or just conversations? From a company standpoint, I'd say keep working to do what your mission is to keep advancing your product to, to make it the best possible to make it appealing. I think communicating about the benefits of what you're doing for a community in terms of job creation, in terms of expanding the tax base in terms of, helping to lower energy prices that is really important and it cuts across party lines. If you can really tell that story effectively if you're in the United States, and certainly anything that is made in the United States is going to be pretty well received. Advocacy organisations should continue to speak out and make clear and, and do it in a way that will resonate. You kind of have to read the room on how, like I was saying earlier, how you talk about these things. There are points to emphasize like US leadership, like reshoring of manufacturing jobs, winning the global race on AI, energy dominance, again, doesn't mean that's not how we would necessarily frame it, but it is a way to be effective in this, in this moment that we're in. And I also think that there's, you know, in your local community, there's opportunities to, be part of, moving things forward. You know, there's an organisation that is trying to do this type of work. They're called Greenlight America. And they identified the problem that I was referring to a moment ago in that these big projects that would really again, it could be a solar project, wind, whatever the case may be, they were failing to get approval in their local community. So city council might vote against the project because at the city council meeting, they had a few people who were fed misinformation from fossil fuel industry, from Fox News, other right wing outlets about these, this, it's really fear mongering about what these projects would do. And they were the only ones that would show up for these meetings. There was no one on the pro clean energy side that would come ready to say why this is good for the community. And so what this organisation is, has been working to do since they started last year, is change that. They don't wanna lose by forfeit anymore. And so a few, a few cool things they do, they have a mobilization hub that provides all the tools and resources talking points. They have an early warning system, which I think is really cool that they identify. You know, there's a lot of different jurisdictions in the United States and it's hard to track all of them, but if you can find out where these votes are happening, then, then you can engage and mobilize and start to, shape things for the better. And so that's what they're doing. And. It's a critical effort. I think the developers of these projects understand that they need to get community buy-in. And for whatever reason, they, have not had as much success to this point as we frankly need them to. What's one reason that you are staying in this fight Chris, even when the odds look tough? Well, think if you take a bigger picture view the energy transition is happening over a long period of time, and this is only a, a setback at the federal level. This this time that we're in this is a four year period, we'll see where the next elections go, but there's so much work to be done and the thing that our team brings is a way to help communicate and, and really leverage the power of communication to be part of the solution. We're just one part of it, but I think it's a really critical part. The messaging matters. How you talk about things matters, and it's gonna be something that is happening the rest of the my life, the rest of our lives that is inevitable. But again, we need to make it happen faster and there's an urgency there. I appreciate working with a sense of urgency. And there's, there's no shortage of that here. Okay. Yep. Makes sense. Are there any books, any films, documentaries, or anything like that that you found particularly inspiring when thinking about all this? Well, one of the things that I have really wanted to understand better is the history of the electric grid. And, the way it is today is not as it would be if we were to start over and say that we're gonna design it the most efficient way, the most sustainable way. But it's not possible, of course to start over. So I was really curious to understand how we got to, to where we are. Going back to, Thomas Edison and the first power lines in New York City, and the progress over the last many decades, and how we can learn from that history. There's a book, it's called Grid, and it's a really, really well done book that provides great history and I think helps us think about how to move forward. and underscores the importance of even if we get everything else right, you have to connect all these projects to the grid. That's a challenge. There's a backlog with a lot of the operators, the, the folks that are in charge of making sure there's enough supply to meet demand. And there's just a huge backlog. And, often it feels like renewables are given short shrift as they are waiting for a long time to get connected to the grid. So the transmission piece is very important. That's something that is a priority for or should be a priority for any sort of permitting reform that, that congress undertakes. And yeah, the grid is really central to everything that we're trying to achieve. Yeah, left field question for you, Chris. If you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for clean energy and grids, who would it be and why? Another great question Tom. I think just given the political moment that we're in, there's always a reverence for former President Reagan, and that's kind of adapted to fit the politician's whatever political agenda. It's, it's conservatives that are always glorifying him and given the fact that it's conservatives who run the federal government at this moment, if you could have President Reagan coming back and advocating for a lot of the clean energy and all the progress towards the energy transition, that would probably be a really effective, he would be an effective spokesperson. Nice. Great. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now Chris, is there any question I have not asked that you wish I had or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? Yeah, I would, I would just a few things that I've, you know, I tried to, generally it's good to try to find some positives in a, in a, despite the dark cloud hanging over again. I'm here in Washington, DC so right in the thick of it. But there's, I think there's three stories that I, I've seen recently that offer some hope. One is and we touched off on this off air, but the fact that one in four cars are electric vehicles according to the IEA and that is an increase from one in five from the year before. So we're, we are seeing adoption could that be faster? Sure. But it's going in the right direction and that is a very positive thing. Just to clar, just to clarify on that for people listening, Chris I know, I know what you meant, but. It's, it's one in four cars sold. So new cars sold this year will be an electric vehicle, whereas last year it was one in five new cars sold. So the, the, the, the figures are going in the right direction. Thank you for clarifying that. It's cars sold. That is an important clarification. And another story is GM just said that they have some technology that could allow them to have more efficient, compact, smaller batteries, which they can put into some of their SUVs and bring the price down. So that is an important development. A lot of Americans really love SUVs and being able to provide those at the same cost as ICE cars is major progress. And so seeing how, how that plays out, that's a real positive sign. Another thing, and this is a, So this is something that I'm excited about is that the 2028 Olympics the Summer Olympics will be in Los Angeles, and a company called Archer Aviation, California based company will provide air taxi services to the games. So if you're a fan, attendee, even athletes there's gonna be this ability to, use the electric vehicle takeoff and landing evtol. This could also be used for emergency services. And it's certainly cleaner. It's more convenient potentially. I don't know what the cost will be. But this is something that seems to be making some progress. There's some partnerships with major commercial airlines that are just beginning and something that could eventually be more widely adopted. It's great that the games will be able to shine a spotlight and people experience that and we'll see what the opportunities might be down the road for a mass, you know, mass adoption and end use. Fantastic. Chris, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today? Where would you have me direct them? So folks can visit echo comms.com. That's comms with two M-C-O-M-M echo comms.com. There's a link there to my LinkedIn and I am a frequent user of LinkedIn and happy to connect with anybody. So those, those would certainly be the best places to find me. Great, and I'll put links to those in the show notes as well for people to find them Chris that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thanks Tom, great chatting with you. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.