Aaron Thurlow: 0:03

If you want a strong, healthy economy, you need power. If you wanna participate in the AI revolution, you need power. So what's the cheapest way to get power? And the fastest way to get power? Solar energy with perovskites.

Tom Raftery: 0:16

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Before we kick off, I want to give a warm welcome to our newest Climate Confident Plus subscriber, Michael Jacobson. Michael, brilliant to have you on board. Thank you so much. If you too want full access to hundreds of deep dive conversations with leaders shaping the energy transition plus a direct line to me for ideas, guests, and new directions, you can find the subscribe link in the show notes. Welcome to episode 249 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emissions reductions. I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Now let's talk about the future of power. Solar is already the cheapest source of new electricity on the planet, but what happens when we push its efficiency into the 30% range and slash costs even further? And what does that mean for businesses wrestling with soaring demand from artificial intelligence, electrification, and new manufacturing. Today I'm joined by Aaron Thurlow, a 25 year solar veteran now leading the commercialization of perovskite, silicon tandem cells at Caelux, a technology that promises a genuine step change, not just another incremental tweak. Silicon took 50 years to gain 10 efficiency points. Now perovskites could add half of that again in just the next couple of years. If you care about the economics, resilience, and strategic edge of clean energy, this is an episode you'll want to hear. Let's dive in, Aaron, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Aaron Thurlow: 2:04

Thank you Tom, and appreciate you having me on. I'm Aaron Thurlow and I have 25 years experience in helping scale the solar energy industry.

Tom Raftery: 2:13

25 in the solar, Aaron. I mean, that was shortly after it was invented, right?

Aaron Thurlow: 2:20

Well, I think it was quite a while after it was invented. In fact, solar, I think, was invented over a hundred years ago. If you want to go dive into the, the research on the photovoltaic effect. But you know, I got in, really what I like to think about is the modern era of solar where we started connecting solar to the energy grid or the utility grid. And that was what really piqued my interest in the technology was this was a technology that not only in the roots of it, you know, was used for remote power and off grid applications, but we determined that we could put a bunch of these modules together and connect 'em up to the utility grid. And that gave us, an alternative form of energy generation. And so that, that got me really interested and excited.

Tom Raftery: 3:03

But it was never gonna go anywhere 'cause it was ridiculously expensive. Right.

Aaron Thurlow: 3:07

It was expensive. And if you, if you go back, 25 years ago, it, it was, in the, dollars per watt for the modules, right? So I, I think at, at the peak when we had a lot of things going on in terms of a silicon shortage driven by actually government policy support for solar, we had a, you know, a peak of in, in my career of like $4 and $4 and 50 cents per watt for modules, which, you know, you think of today and there's parts of the world today where you can buy a module for 10 cents a watts. It's just phenomenal how much cost down there's been.

Tom Raftery: 3:41

Hmm, when I was a kid. I worked on a building site I was 14 and it was a summer job working on a building site, and we were building a, I wanna call it a cow shed, but that's a, that's a very basic name for what it really was, because what it was was, sure cows could shelter in it, but it was a massive solar installation, photovoltaic installation, which was driving a milking parlor.

Aaron Thurlow: 4:13

Oh wow!.

Tom Raftery: 4:14

Yeah, this was in the mid eighties so really, really early. And it was an experiment that was being run by the department of either electrical engineering or physics in University College Cork. I was involved in the construction side., I can't imagine how much the, the solar cost back in the mid eighties.

Aaron Thurlow: 4:34

There's definitely graphs out there. I mean, I think you're, you're probably looking in the $15 a watt range back then. It was obviously small scale, but as you said, it worked. People were doing these projects and experimenting with it, and there's examples of that in the United States and then in Japan, and I have, you know, a lot of respect for, for Japan in the, the nineties, you know, started doing residential solar and starting some of the early government support policy programs for residential solar in the 1990's.

Tom Raftery: 5:01

Yeah. Amazing. And I am assuming a lot of those panels are working still because I was seeing some research that came out last week showing that solar panels that are 20, 30 years old are still at in excess of 90% of their original efficiency.

Aaron Thurlow: 5:18

Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of research out there that that shows that a lot of these, despite, you know, some of the materials that we've learned a lot over the years. They were made well and, they have lived up to the expectation to have a long life.

Tom Raftery: 5:33

Yeah, and I mean, talking of efficiency it has come a long way, but we have hit a bit of an efficiency ceiling with silicon now, haven't we? What? What's holding the industry back there?

Aaron Thurlow: 5:46

I think that, you know, when you think of silicon as a, medium it's a great, great medium. We have a theoretical physical limitation on silicon. We've known this for, decades of about 29% efficiency. So what that means is if you have a full sun on the module, like directly on that solar cell, and there's laboratory measurements to do all this, but you get about 29% of energy hitting that cell out as electricity. And that's a theoretical, limitation of the material of silicon. And so what's pretty phenomenal is for commercial production we've seen like back contact as a technology get up into the 25 kind of almost 25% range. That's getting pretty close to theoretical limit. So to, and you have to think about this. This is doing stuff in commercial high, you know, massive scale production. So that's impressive. Now if you go back to the 1970's. You're looking at maybe about 14% efficiency levels. And so when you look at that on a trajectory that means like you've only in 50 years roughly, you've only gone from up about 10% in efficiency, which is, which is huge. But you know, a lot of people think about like computers and, you know, doubling and, and Moore's law and all that. I was at SunPoweR&D ick Swanson has, you know, what's called Swanson's Law but we're kind of getting to the end of the road for, for silicon. And so what we've seen over the years is that it's been pretty incremental, like changes. So you have very incremental, slow, kind of, and steady up in terms of efficiency. And so I'm over at Caelux now, and you see my nice Caelux hat here and you're probably wondering, well, what does Caelux do? And, and why are we talking about solar efficiency? And really what we're doing is we're bringing a step function increase to the efficiency by putting two power generation layers into one module. And so we're gonna continue to use this silicon as the base layer, but what our company does is that we create a product called Active Glass, and we coat the top glass in a solar module with a Perovskite material. And Perovskites is a new material set that relatively new people have been working on it in earnest for a decade now. But it's getting to the point where're we're making, extraordinary gains in efficiency and in a commercially viable product. And so when you take the Perovskite layer and you put it on top of the silicon layer, can you make that into one solar module? You now are into the high twenties from an efficiency perspective. And then if we look out, you know, five years, it's very likely that we will have solar modules that could be 30 plus percent in efficiency. So that's really exciting. So it, it gives you a, path forward beyond just silicon on its own. And the great thing about this technology is that it's very inexpensive relative you know, to other technologies that deliver really high levels of efficiency. And so has a lot of promise because we do have technologies and we've had technologies for years that are used in space applications or other very high value applications, but they're not just, dollars per watt. Some of these technologies have been hundreds of dollars per watt. This technology can come in and it can compete at scale, with essentially the cost trajectory we're at today. So that's, that's very exciting.

Tom Raftery: 9:24

Indeed, and what makes Perovskites, such a game changer, for solar rather than some other approach apart from the cost? What, what's so unique about it?

Aaron Thurlow: 9:37

Well, I think what's unique about the material set is, I mean, it is hard not to talk about the cost because cost is a big deal. Cost is the huge, the biggest driver in this industry has been is, you know, continually pushing the the cost down which has allowed solar to really proliferate. And we can, we can talk more about that. But the other thing is, the technology and the rate and the speed of the learning behind Perovskite as a material set and what that material set has been able to do in the matter of a decade is really phenomenal from a research perspective. And research is occurring, all over the world on this material set. Because it has so much promise and we're finally, now at, at a place where the technology is essentially ready for commercial applications. So I would say, you know, it's, it's this combination of costs plus being able to deliver efficiency in this manner or supplement silicon in this manner and, and, or in terms of a tandem solar module. Okay.

Tom Raftery: 10:40

Okay, and can you explain simple terms how Active Glass actually works?

Aaron Thurlow: 10:48

The easiest way to think about Active Glass is that it's its own solar module on its own. It could be its own solar module on its own. And so, obviously, you know, there's always, optimists and, and, folks that are, very excited about new technology and see the, and, and you could call some of them visionaries but, you know, see the, the potential and what a new technology can do. And then you always have folks on the other side that are kind of naysayers and this, this isn't gonna work for these reasons. So I will say that today if you were gonna just have a Perovskite module, so our Active Glass on its own as a single layer Perovskite module, it would not be able to compete with silicon because the technology in terms of the efficiency it drives, the efficiency is not at the levels of silicon yet. And that's where when we combine the active glass with the silicon and so our product you can think of is the same glass that goes on the solar module comes to us. We, transform it into Active Glass, and then it goes back to the module manufacturer that packages it up in their, solar module manufacturing process. And so the real benefit here, is the fact that you have this two power generation layers in one module. And so the, you get an incremental efficiency boost. And when I say incremental, it's really a step function, but we're talking about as an example, our initial product that will be kind of limited release to specific test partners will provide a 3% efficiency uplift. Three absolute efficiency points of uplift. And then, when we get into scaled production, we'll have, five to 6% absolute deficiency uplift. So that's, like a 20%, 20 to 30% depending on your cell technology uplift in the absolute efficiency, which is, really, really good. When you go back to that example of 10% in 50 years, we're gonna potentially, you know, deliver in a couple years, five to 6% points. And then there's headroom, there's a lot of room to grow. And we're not a company that does, record breaking announcements, like everything we do in our kind of lab in R&D is focused on can we put this into commercial production? But I think there is some value to, the companies that do, do the, the record breaking stuff. It's good to show you like what's potential and people are already into, you know, 30 plus, you know, percent. When they do some of this record breaking research.

Tom Raftery: 13:22

And that's all very well in the lab. What about in the field? Has this shipped yet? Is it shipping? Will it ship? You know what, what's the story there with commercialisation?

Aaron Thurlow: 13:37

Yeah, so this is, this is great and this is why I'm, I got brought into Caelux was really to lead the commercialisation effort and I'm, I'm really excited. This is something I love to do. And I'm gonna give you a little side, personal side note here, and then I'll, I'll, I'll answer the question of course. But you know, like for me. I get really excited about anything I can do to help expand and grow this industry. And I've always looked at it as, you know, when I've joined companies. There's two kind of ways that you can expand this industry. One is through technology. And so I've done a lot around, you know, launching new technologies into this space. And Caelux checks that box. And the other box is around like scale. And so I've worked for some of the largest solar manufacturers in the world that have the ability to move the needle from a scale perspective. What's really fascinating about, this technology also is that it's, it's relatively easy to scale. So you know, obviously I'm, I'm have a, a lot of hope and, incredible kind of passion and aspirations for, for this technology. What I wanted to say when we go to the field shipment is that we did just do our first commercial shipment. So this is in process. We are, we're not because of NDAs and all sorts of stuff that we're not ready to disclose, you know, any further details about, you know, who it is, where it's going, all the normal stuff that people are interested in. But what I'll say is as we look to 2026, we have plans to do several more commercial shipments and really next year for us is going to be a year of, of using our production capacity. So we're we have full scale production. It's a pilot facility, but we have a, we have the ability to produce full scale product outside of Los Angeles, in Baldwin Park. And we're using that production capacity for two things. One, to learn and, and hone in, our production processes, which you might expect because we're going to go to gigawatt scale next and we want to know what we're doing, on small scale before we do that. And the other is, is to have enough, product to seed the market and to really get this out into the field and work with our partners to, understand, all sorts of things that, that we need to understand about it. And I think that process can never be underestimated because you learn a lot once you have the, the product in the field. But we have a anyways, enormous interest from the industry and, and as you can imagine, because of what this technology will do to project costs. And people's return on investment on their projects and what it, it just, it opens a lot of doors for folks.

Tom Raftery: 16:15

And I assume you're going after the utility market as opposed to the residential.

Aaron Thurlow: 16:21

That's a great question. You know what? People ask me this all the time and, and there's like, I, I usually get it actually, the, the opposite was, so you guys are just a residential product, right? And here's what's great about, you know, we talked about you asked about Perovskites and, you know cost was, you know, one issue. But what's really incredible about this technology is that it's not a niche technology. It's gonna work across all the segments in the industry. And we can look at residential and we can tell you just be based on economics of residential, a Perovskite tandem module will provide the most value in a residential setting. If you're just looking purely on a economic basis. However, the product also is incredibly beneficial for utility scale in driving project IRRs, changing cash flows. It's really incredible. And so in the, what allows that is the combination of the efficiency gain and the cost structure. And when we look back in time, when you look at a lot of the higher efficiency technologies, in some ways they've been relegated to residential because residential is a market that is able to pay more. And so the economics are different. So if you have a high cost structure for your technology, then you may end up in, in, I would call it, you know, in, maybe it's not fair to call residential niche market, but in comparison to utility, which really drives the volumes in the industry it is but we're looking to, to partner folks across residential, community solar, C&I, utility scale because it, the, the technology works everywhere, which is really nice.

Tom Raftery: 18:09

Okay. And in terms of manufacturing, are you planning on manufacturing all yourself or licensing out to others to allow them to allow you to scale faster?

Aaron Thurlow: 18:19

So on the manufacturing side what we're looking to do, we're not looking to become a module manufacturer. We're looking to partner with module manufacturers. And so in some ways you can think of us as a component supplier to these module manufacturers. Now we are looking at some JV structures to get, our plants built, faster and built around the world. So we do see this as a, as a technology that can be produced, essentially almost anywhere in the world. And when you look at the global, solar market, it's, you know, it's massive and it's becoming, there's major regions now. So we think that a regional manufacturing model makes sense. That, especially glass that does it really make sense to be shipping glass all over the world? I think, you know, that will get answered. In the, in the next decade. So far we have been as an industry, but I think that you have a trend towards regionalisation in manufacturing, and that's what we plan to do.

Tom Raftery: 19:18

Okay, because today most of the solar panels are coming outta China. Right?

Aaron Thurlow: 19:23

Correct? Yeah.

Tom Raftery: 19:24

Okay.

Aaron Thurlow: 19:25

So, you know, China has, has invested heavily in the supply chain and now you are seeing other centers emerge. So the US certainly has a huge push for domestic manufacturing here. India has a big push for domestic as well, and then you have a lot of potential manufacturing emerging outta the Middle East. And, and not to mention obviously China, but I think, we are seeing this change.

Tom Raftery: 19:52

And how far can tandem solar take us? Are there limits to how much solar we can realistically get from it?

Aaron Thurlow: 20:00

So that's a really excellent question and I like to kind of go back to, I have an energy policy background and when I was studying energy policy, like energy transitions were generally a 20 to 30 year timeframe. And then you would end up with around 20 to 30% of the market. If we just look at solar from an electricity perspective, I think that that could hold true. But when we add in battery storage, and when we add in other applications from an energy perspective, not just electricity perspective, then I think you have much greater potential. So today, solar is already the, essentially the cheapest form of new energy generation, and it's already dominating in, in many countries in terms of new energy or new electricity generation capacity being added to the grid. And so when you add in a technology like ours, we're gonna further make it, we're gonna just make it that much cheaper. So we're gonna further accelerate the trajectory. I just read an article this morning suggesting that, that globally we're actually up to 7%. And I'm sure that, you know, there's. I didn't get into the, the details of, of that number, so there might be some people argue that it's lower. I don't, you know, think it's higher, but I think it's probably in that, order of magnitude. We had mostly driven by China, but we, we had, we've already had 380 gigawatts of solar electricity connected to the utility grid in the first half of this year. 21 gigawatts in the US despite, you know, what people see as kind of a challenging situation for the US. So I think, you know, the trajectory is there for this technology to really come up and take a big share of electricity generation when it's coupled with storage. And that's because it's an intermittent, intermittent technology as most people know. You know, you have to be prepared. What, what happens when the sun doesn't shine? There's other ways that we might augment that with other generation technologies. And then when you look at, and I know it's, it's lost a little bit of its hype in the last, couple years, but, you know, green hydrogen is another really kind of hyped, industry And I, I don't mean hyped in a bad way. I do think, like if you look out, decades from now, is there a possibility that we, we use hydrogen in place of other, you know, liquid or affordable fossil fuels. And I think there's absolutely the potential. And so how are you gonna generate that hydrogen? And I would argue that it's gonna be solar or wind is gonna be the cheapest way to generate that hydrogen. So we'll see. Obviously time will tell, but we're certainly on the right trajectory which is really, really, you know, for me exciting because I never we're already beyond where I thought we would be 25 years later.

Tom Raftery: 23:55

Great. Great. I'll skip over the, the hydrogen part 'cause I'm very, very skeptical. but you did allude to the political situation in the US and the kind of headwinds that the solar industry is starting to see there. Do you see that impacting on your business?

Aaron Thurlow: 24:12

Well actually for, for Caelux I think it's going to be a bit of you know, and I don't want to offend anybody, but a, a tailwind for us because we provide a technology that can help bridge the gap post ITC. So if you think about the fact that you're gonna lose a 30% tax credit, how are you gonna make up the delta? And look, I think that we're already the cheapest form of new energy generation. I think on a personal note, you know, I do feel like there's room for us to have higher PPA prices, even, you know, the, the reality is, and, and this changes, right, based on the market. But if you look at the, demand drivers for electricity in the US, you know, it's large data centers, it's AI, it's new manufacturing. And I do think that, we're gonna see power prices rise regardless of, solar and the ITC. And so, there will be room for, solar to, have an uplift in PPA prices. This is, I think, already starting to happen. And of course there will be sensitive projects that, that just don't pencil out. And for those sensitive projects that don't pencil out, I think we, we could potentially really change, move the needle in such a way that those projects become a reality again. And to me that's, you know very exciting. I always like it when technology plays a role in overcoming, challenges. But two more things I'll say on this topic is one and I might add a third 'cause there's so much talk about here, but, but I think, the industry is extremely resilient. And it's tough. There's no doubt, like this is, not an easy industry. There's constant volatility, but as an industry, it continues to march forward. It continues to, to make strides forward. And it's, you know, not everything is always up into the right and the straight line as we'd all like, there's bumps along the way, but the trajectory is there. And I think that, the industry is going to find ways to bridge this gap. We'll be one of them. And we'll, get back onto the right kind of growth trajectory. The other thing I wanted to say is that this is a global industry and you know, we just, we were just talking about China and how much capacity they're adding and the fact that, you know, that they've invested heavily in the supply chain. But this is a global industry. So, for us at Caelux we're looking at supplying the global industry. We're not just focused on one market. Of course, the US is our home market. We wanna win here. We wanna make an impact here, but we're also have an international team and we have aspirations to be quite successful internationally. And then the last point I'll make, you know, that is US specific, is that I think from a US perspective, this isn't really about solar energy in my mind, this is really about energy independence and I am a big believer in a lot of the manufacturing that's being brought back with regards to solar, to the US. I think it's important. I think it's important that we have the know-how because this is the energy source for the future. And our economies run on energy. And so we need, while I'm a big believer in having global diversification and global players, I'm also a big believer in, having it here locally in the US And I think that all, regions should have, some level of solar manufacturing that are using and deploying a large, amount of solar electricity right. And so I think that we'll see this trend of regionalisation and manufacturing come up. Also just from energy independence perspective and not having to rely on others for, for their energy.

Tom Raftery: 27:40

Yeah, I think that's gonna be hugely important for the likes of, as you mentioned, India. The amount of solar being deployed there is ramping up enormously. And then if we think of Sub-Saharan Africa as well, because that's somewhere where solar hasn't really penetrated to date, but the insolation, SOL, insol, not insulation, insolation that they have there means that they should be able to leapfrog traditional fossil fuel industries and just go straight to the like of solar, no?

Aaron Thurlow: 28:11

Yeah, I mean, I, I agree with that, and I think that is one of the, I mean, the great aspects of this technology is that it's. It can be deployed anywhere. And so you have, you know, you give an example of where they have a massive solar resource, but you know, Germany was one of their early markets and everybody was like, what? Why is Germany pushing this? They have, they don't have that much solar resource, but it still works and it works well. Right. And the world really benefited from, what Germany did. And also the US and, and now what China's doing, right? And we just see others like India coming up strong and, and following suit. So I think, the trajectory is really strong for solar energy as a major future source of, of electricity and energy for the world.

Tom Raftery: 28:56

And what do you think are the biggest hurdles ahead for solar? Would it be manufacturing scale? Would it be financing? Would it be policy? Would it be a another thing that I haven't thought of?

Aaron Thurlow: 29:09

Well, you know, I think it depends on the, on the, on the market,

Tom Raftery: 29:13

Mm-hmm.

Aaron Thurlow: 29:13

And the region. And so, different I do think financings has been an issue in manufacturing outside of China. That's something that if you talk to enough solar manufacturers about is that, the pool of companies that have been willing to put big dollars behind global manufacturing expansion, has been China. And there's a whole bunch of companies that have, tried to compete and it's been difficult from a capital perspective. So I think capital's always a big one. But I think we're gonna see that we're gonna continue to see capital and I think you, you're seeing like India is really investing heavily now in their own manufacturing. We're starting to see the US investing in their own manufacturing capabilities. So I do think that that hurdle will, be overcome. I think we also have interconnection broadly, you know, as a topic, like there are limits, like with our grid at least in the US and this is a little bit US centric, but I think even in, other parts of the world like the grid has to keep up with the amount of capacity you're adding. And so that's, that could be a limiting, factor in terms of growth or the growth rate is gonna be, coupled with, the ability for the, grid to accept the power. Outside of those, hurdles, I think, you really get into geopolitical stuff that can become, hard to predict and, creates volatility. But I, I will say that this industry's gotten very good at figuring out how to, overcome all these policy obstacles that get, thrown at it. And, and it's not just, you know, the US there's policy changes that happen. You know, in Europe we've seen a few rounds of different policies. We've, you know, seen that even in China they have policy changes. Everybody has policy changes. I mean, it's just something that ha that happens. But I do think that as we get further and further down the road we become less dependent upon policy. And we become less dependent on policy incentives as an industry. Policies in general can still certainly hurt or become challenging to the industry depending on what they are.

Tom Raftery: 31:19

If you had one message for policy makers, investors, or everyday listeners on the role of Perovskites in climate action, for example, what would it be?

Aaron Thurlow: 31:30

That's hard to drill down to just one message, but I think that you have to think about. Perovskites as increasing the efficiency in such a way that it further drives down the costs of solar electricity, and you also are, by making it more efficient, you're reducing the carbon footprint of the technology, right? So I think from a climate perspective, there is a, carbon benefit here for sure. But the cost benefit is what's going to dramatically increase the trajectory of the industry. And If you look at, from a climate perspective, you want to increase the trajectory as fast as you can. You want to displace fossil energy as fast as you can. This is an amplification and accelerator to do that. If you're on the side of, for whatever reason, haven't quite come around to the thinking of the climate folks, then you don't have to worry about climate. Just worry about this is your cheapest cost of power and the way the economy's going, you need more power. Like, if you want a strong, healthy economy, you need power. If you wanna participate in the AI revolution, you need power. So what's the cheapest way to get power? And the fastest way to get power? Solar energy with perovskites. So it's, it's a win-win really.

Tom Raftery: 32:54

Makes sense. Left field question for you, if you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for perovskites and solar, who would it be and why?

Aaron Thurlow: 33:12

Oh wow. I have a, you know, a few, personal heroes. One is certainly Al Gore from a climate perspective. But I think he might be a little bit too polarising these days, you know, like I think, so I, you know, maybe go back into history and, know, just say Thomas Edison.

Tom Raftery: 33:30

Right. Fair enough, fair enough. Good. I like it. Nice. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Aaron, is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I did or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Aaron Thurlow: 33:46

No, I think we actually covered a lot here. I think it's a very exciting, technology and I think it's going to happen. We didn't talk really about the fact that there's a number of companies beyond ours that's working, to make this technology a reality. I did mention that there's, literally hundreds of research centers around the world working on the technology. It's not just one, you know, it's not just us. This technology really has global support to become, the next and I, I, I mean this sounds cheesy, but the next big thing, right? And I think it will, I, I absolutely 100% believe that when you look out five to 10 years from now, Perovskite silicon tandems is gonna, you know, dominate the landscape in solar energy.

Tom Raftery: 34:30

Okay, Aaron, that's been fantastic. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me to direct them?

Aaron Thurlow: 34:40

Absolutely. So if you wanna find out more about our company head over to Caelux dot com, C-A-E-L-U-X, and then I'm on LinkedIn and you can uh, contact me via that. Or, you know, reach out through our website.

Tom Raftery: 34:56

Great. Super. I'll put those links in the show notes as well, Aaron, so everyone has access to them. Aaron, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Aaron Thurlow: 35:05

Absolutely. Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and the thoughtful questions.

Tom Raftery: 35:10

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.