The failure isn't in the fact that renewables are being used to create power where it's needed. The failure was in the grid to be able to remain balanced and, have the right systems in place to, to ensure that it, could be flexible enough. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 256 of the Climate Confident Podcast. My name is Tom Raftery Europe doesn't have a clean energy problem. It has a grid problem. Solar is now the cheapest electricity in history. Battery prices have collapsed. Electrification is accelerating across transport, heating, industry and data centers, and yet projects that make economic and climate sense are being delayed or blocked, Not because the technology isn't ready, but because the system it's trying to plug into isn't. My guest today is Rob Stait, Managing Director of Alight's behind the meter business. Alight builds and owns onsite solar and battery systems for large energy users, locking in long-term savings, while improving resilience and reducing exposure to grid volatility. We talk about why waiting for cheaper tech is often the wrong decision, how solar plus storage changes energy procurement. Why blaming renewables for grid instability misses the point and why microgrids may be the next inevitable step. If you care about energy security, affordability, and decarbonisation in the real world. This episode is for you. Rob, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Thanks Tom, and thanks very much for having me. Yeah. My name's Rob Stait. I'm the managing director for, Alight BtM which is the part of Alight Energy Group, the Half which provides onsite solar or behind the meter as it's called, which is solar that's dedicated directly to a customer, as opposed to being connected to the grid. Alight itself has been going for around 10 years now. So we've been in the industry for some time, but we're actually quite unusual in the commercial direct solar sector in that we also operate as an independent power producer, so effectively as a grid utility supplier. And we have almost half a gigawatt of solar parks and mainly across the Nordics, which is also fairly unusual. But the direct solar business, that I run is also growing at pace and we've established a substantial presence now and a, good position in the UK having already grown in Spain in France and in Poland. And just briefly, what we do is we deliver substantial bill savings for our customers and provide resilience to power supplies through direct dedicated solar assets. And that's primarily for large energy intensive corporates and through power purchase agreements. So what we're doing is putting cost effective power generation directly where the demand is. Okay. And explain to me just briefly, quickly, the Independent Power Producer means you are essentially a utility. The PPA means you are putting power behind the meter for companies. So if I am a widget inc. company, I can talk to Alight and say, I've got a big field out the back, or I've got a lot of roof space. Can you help me out with my, with my power? Talk to me about that conversation, how it goes. Yeah, exactly right. So, so what we're able to do is bypass many of the challenges that we faced with getting grid connected assets live, particularly in the uk, which can be hugely problematic. And put the generation either on site, on land that the client may have or on their rooftop even on carports, is becoming increasingly common. Or a another growth area for us that we're specialists in is something called private wire where we lease land that is nearby to the site and then feed it directly into the consumer. What that means is that we're able to take more of their load and supply more of the power that they need, a greater proportion of it through solar which maximises their savings. And a power purchase agreement will lock those savings in for a long time. You know, solar assets endure for, decades as, as you know, so these power purchase agreements can be equally decades long. And it's locked in savings and, and gives them that resilience, and that predictability of cost. Okay, so the power purchase agreement itself is a contract to supply energy for X number of years at guaranteed y price per kilowatt hour. Exactly that, yes. In a nutshell. Okay, perfect. And obviously. We're all familiar with solar. The sun rises, generates power, sun sets, stops generating power. Do you have a storage option that goes along with the solar panels as well? Yeah, increasingly energy storage and BESS is part of every conversation that we have now. The stage is set really for BESS. Energy prices through solar have have dramatically and continue to fall. But batteries themselves the price of storage has dropped about 50% in the past two years, and it's forecast to do the same over the next two years as well. So, it's a fantastic time to actually maximise all those savings that you, can get from solar by adding BESS to it. I The IEA has recently predicted that there will be a sixfold increase in global storage capacity in the next five years, by 2030. And, and what BESS also offers is an abundance of other revenue streams where you actually have a relationship with the grid and can do things like offering flexibility and trading. So this is a huge interest to us and it's a big focus of, of ours as a company is, and is part of every conversation that we're having with, our customers. There's gotta be a bit of a tension there though. I mean, if, for example, I'm thinking of buying a new laptop I see that there's going to be a a newer version come out in six or eight months time with faster processor, cheaper, whatever. Do I jump in now or do I wait? And what you're saying, this is kind of an analogy we can all come on board with what you're saying is that battery prices have dropped 50% and they're gonna drop another 50% in the next two years. And solar panels similarly have come down enormously and are forecast to keep going down. So, do I jump in today and get the solar panels and battery storage? Or do I wait two years when it's gonna be 50% cheaper? Or is it more an idea that if I jump in today, I can get solar plus let's say two hours of storage, I jump in next year, I can get solar plus three hours of storage for the same price, and you know, where, where does that all work out, do you think? Yeah, it's, it's a good challenge. And there are other aspects in, in that mix as well. I mentioned the other revenue streams that are available and how that's actually making the contracts and the supply agreements increasingly complex. And as we know, the energy sector is fraught with volatility and has been forever and that shows no sign of abating. When is the right time to adopt? When is the right time to make a significant change and commit for the long term? I would actually pare it back to the basics and look at the business case on a base case of savings on your bills today. And lock that in for the duration. We are doing PPAs and talking about PPAs that include BESS, that are 15, 20 years long and beyond. So whether it becomes cheaper or not, you can lock in those savings today. And take more of your load from solar and BESS and, and less from the grid. To lock in a, a huge price advantage for, decades is really compelling. There's never a right or wrong time, but as soon as you are able to make that business case, then you should adopt. The great thing about BESS is that it's modular. So, you can lock in those savings and get the benefits of, increased solar provision around the clock through BESS and tariff optimisation. then you can add more BESS capacity in time so that you can actually take more advantage of cheaper prices and of revenue streams through trading. And that's the beauty of BESS. And then looking even further ahead, the argument to building greater resilience as well becomes important as we look as look at the fragility of grids across Europe. And having solar and BESS having that hybrid agreement lays the foundation actually then to start looking at decoupling completely from the grid if and when you need to. So having that island-able capability, you've got the foundation there and it's, it's only a small step away to actually progress into that sort of future as well. So begin with the base case. Begin with today's savings. Lock that in, and then build from there would be my advice. Okay, and just I've never negotiated a power purchase agreement, but you know, I have done similar things like car leases, for example, and with a car lease you can pay a certain amount upfront and then, pay more every, every month thereafter. Is that similar with a power purchase agreement that you have an outlay at the start and then you pay a monthly, or is it free at the start? No. CapEx and it's all opex? Or is it, an it depends conversation? It depends in terms of what our client's preference is, but by and large, the typical PPA will be zero CapEx and zero CapEx over the lifetime. So, that's the whole point of it, is that we fund the scheme, and fund the scheme for its duration and, and we own and operate as well. So it's not our policy to then look to sell it once it's built. We'll stay with it, we'll retain ownership of, of that scheme, and that's important too. But we do have clients as well that will want to use this year's budget and will want to put some money down towards development costs or opex costs things like that. So it can be flexed to a degree, but the great attraction of the PPA is that there is no CapEx outlay. And of course then you're doing all the maintenance as well if you maintain ownership. Exactly. Yeah, and I think that's a really important factor is to find a supplier that will work with you from the beginning to design and develop a project. And will work through the construction period and right through the ownership as well. So maintaining the integrity of that supply and giving the, the client confidence. We work with clients who have had historic deployments that have been sold multiple times and they don't even know now who owns it. And that's a, you know, that, that, that's quite frightening concept when you think of who could be owning that asset. So, it is something to go in, into the market with eyes wide open that you want a supplier that is gonna remain with that asset. And of course, obviously Europe's energy market feels like it's at a bit of an inflection point at the moment. What do you think is the biggest tension you see right now between energy security, affordability, and decarbonisation, for example? Yeah, it's, there are many inflection points aren't there and, and lots of dynamics are affecting the power markets and and the outlook and actually demand as well for electricity has plateaued somewhat just recently, but most forecasts aligned that it's set to dramatically increase over the next decade, driven by things like electrification, energy transition. And of course by the growth in data centers which itself is driven largely by adoption of AI. So it's fair to say that pretty much any forecast will project dramatic increases in demand, and probably the biggest challenge that we face with all of that is that our grids simply are not set up to cope with that influx of demand. We don't have the infrastructure, but we also don't have the permitting regimes that can bring online new generation fast enough. And I think this is the real challenge facing the energy sector. It's not some fictitious battle between fossil fuel lobbyists and environmentalists. Tapping into more fossil fuels won't solve these fundamental issues that we have. Our grids are based across Europe on centralised infrastructure. So that begins with massive power stations and then distributes out to increasingly smaller scale from there. And that's not fit for purpose in a world where data centers can be pretty much anywhere and you've got increasingly decentralised demand. And new generation capacity, light solar being located where that demand is, which is very sensible. And, as a result of that, the grid monitoring systems that we have across Europe, I understand are now regularly showing amber and red in a, in a way that would've been absolutely unheard of, perhaps even five years ago. These are the things that we're, that we're really faced with that are, that are massive problems for, for us to overcome. Okay, so it's not really technical issues that are at stake here. It is more regulatory that needs to be fixed. Yes, I think so. If you also look at where the growth is in renewables and, in solar in particular, which is forecast to become the dominant power supply across the world over the next five or 10 years, it's in small scale. Bloomberg recently reported that small scale is up 30% year on year, where utility scale is actually dropping off a little bit this year. And there are other reasons for that. But there is this boom happening in the market and it is in those direct dedicated supplies that generate power where the demand is. So actually embracing that, harnessing it, and making it easier to put that where it's needed, can solve many of, many of these issues, and increasingly we're talking to customers that are thinking in much more sophisticated ways about managing their own demand as well, and their exposure to grid fragility and how they can actually overcome that with intelligent distributed demand management and shifting processing load between locations to cope with fluctuations in, power generation. That's part of the solution as well. And increasingly, battery storage as will be part of every deployment I expect in, in the future. So meeting more of that round the clock demand, but also adding that resilience to customers power supplies, and as I said, laying the foundation for microgrids and becoming less dependent on grid infrastructure itself. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of talk here where I'm based in Spain. And we had last April a, a big blackout on the entire peninsula. There's a lot of speculation about that being caused by too much solar on the grid and the fact that, solar doesn't create spinning turbines. And those spinning turbines, you know, it is the gradual slowing of them or the continual spinning of those that keeps grids more stable. If you don't have those, 'cause you're not running turbines, you have solar panels, then the grid becomes less stable. What do you say to that argument? Well, it all points back to the same thing, doesn't it? Which is that we've got distributed demand and an increase in distributed demand. And the real challenge is how we manage that and how we gear up the grid and the flexibility systems so that we can cope with that. And I think that's where the failure was. The failure isn't in the fact that renewables are being used to create power where it's needed. The failure was in the grid to be able to remain balanced and, have the right systems in place to, to ensure that it, could be flexible enough. And I think that's what policy makers really need to address is, to make sure that that flexibility is made easier to bring to market. There's a number of factors in that. If you look across Europe and even within a a single geography with, within a country, the quality of data on grid performance and the transparency of that data is hugely variable. So there's massive improvements there because if investors like ourselves could see, where power is most needed and can align that with opportunities that we have, and then if we're confident that we'll get accelerated time to market as a result, then the commercial reality is gonna take care of the problem. You know, we, Hmm. we'll make sure that that's, put in place because it, it makes economic sense. It's about shift in thinking away from these centralised grid infrastructure systems and believing that it's, that that must be preserved. It isn't. It's the complete opposite. And obviously, as you mentioned, you have different grids throughout Europe in different regions with different levels of digitisation, but what about the regulatory landscape throughout Europe?'cause you've gotta be dealing with different regulators as well in each different country. Is there a, a patchwork of regulators where some are better than others or are they all pretty much the same? Yeah, with, without a doubt, there is some are regulated more thoroughly than, others and even aspects like having statutory timelines for decisions, and having transparent criteria for, decisions varies dramatically from country to country. And aspects like that are, are really important to companies like, ours you know, an investor like ourselves. We need, that predictability and we need confidence over time to market. So as soon as that becomes unpredictable. then it, makes it a less attractive market, which, which is why we're seeing the growth in, the markets where there is better transparency, there is more data available and there are statutory frameworks that hold the grid operators to account. Okay, who's doing well and who's a bit of a laggard? Yeah, it's there are the obvious solar adopters that have adopted at scale. Some fantastic renewable stories coming out of Europe just recently or, or in autumn of 25 Portugal ran on six days, didn't it? Entirely on, renewables, which was fantastic news. And you know, Germany leads Europe in adoption of solar in particular, but of, renewables. And, and the laggard actually has been the UK where I'm based, but the UK is, catching up fast and particularly with solar and BESS this hybrid system that makes a lot more sense. And so we are seeing very rapid growth in the uk, as the UK wakes up and, and sees the business case. And the UK's got some pretty unique, aspects, which mean that solar in particular is very attractive. It has the highest industrial electricity charges in the world. and non, non-commodity elements in there are unlike anywhere else. So the savings can be huge as well, which makes it probably the number one growth market for us at the moment. Wow. Yeah. I mean, you don't think of the UK as being somewhere where solar is going to shine, if you'll pardon the pun. But then again, you mentioned that your company Alight, started in the Nordics, which is you gotta think even less attractive as a, as a solar destination. Although I read recently that Sweden has more hours of daylight annually than Italy, just not in wintertime, but if you, if you annualise it, Sweden actually has more hours of sunshine than Italy, which is impressive. Interesting fact. I wasn't aware of that one. I'll, I'll be using that in the office for sure. Sweden and, and the Nordic's typically dark for half the year. Hmm. and yet we've made it work on a unsubsidised basis. and we've made it a commercial success. We're the largest actually solar operator in the Nordics now, and there is a lesson there for other developers and market participants. We were founded in Sweden and, we've made solar work in some of the gloomiest conditions in Europe. So solar really can work anywhere. And then, the advancements in panel technology as well just keeps, it, keeps getting better and better every year. But then with the addition of, of battery solutions, it really does make it viable anywhere. And that's why it's, it is forecast to become the biggest power source in the world, and will be our main route to decarbonising grids around the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 'cause I have a five kilowatt solar array on the roof here, which is made up of 18 panels. So you can do the, the maths there quickly on how many watts I'm getting out of each panel. And that was installed in 2018. But my neighbor across the road, David installed panels last year, summer 2025. And he installed 16 panels and he's getting eight kilowatts. so yeah, 500 watts per panel, which is significantly more than mine. Over seven year difference in, in terms of the technology. So the technology's advanced that much in seven years, that he's getting that much more out of his panels than I am outta mine. So yeah, it's, it's amazing to see in such a short time. Yeah, exactly. And his panels will be a lot cheaper as well. But it does, it doesn't mean that it was the wrong thing for you to do to, adopt. You've, already locked in the benefits. That's fundamentally why solar is on this unstoppable boom. It is the cheapest. It is the easiest thing to install. It's the most robust form of power generation that we've ever had. And that's why there's this alignment of forecast, which expected to become the dominant power supply over the next five years or so. And I, I, I think we should be celebrating that because every deployment decarbonises the grid a bit more. It will ultimately have a huge impact in addressing climate change. And that can only be a, a good thing. It's why we're all in the sector. And I think that message is being lost somewhat in the political gloom in the UK with Reform and Farage and in the US with, Trump. So, we should be celebrating the, success a lot more I think. Yeah, and most of your customers are corporates, obviously. Are they rolling out solar for cost reasons, for carbon reasons for resilience, for something else, for all of the above? It's, yeah, it's definitely all, all of the above. I think the proportions to which one of the three is a priority will differ from client to client, but the number one is that it has to save money, almost always for the first adoption. And that's the interesting thing, that actually the business case will, be made on an economic argument. But then the other benefits start to be appreciated and, gain value, which makes actually savings less important. And, and just to transition to renewables, more important generally, because not every site is perfectly suitable. Not every site has a substantial load, but just transitioning off the grid and onto a sustainable and more robust power supply is increasingly becoming important, particularly for companies that have already adopted and are already appreciating the benefits. Can you share a customer success story, an example of how well this has worked for one of your customers? Sure. Yeah. we tend to work with energy intensive corporates. We're actually fairly picky, fairly selective on the projects that, we work with and the companies that we work with because we do want to stay with the projects and own them for, their lifetime. And, and one of our oldest clients is Lear Corporation, who are a massive player in the aerospace industry, and we've been able to work with them across multiple sites across Europe. And, they're a really good example of a company championing that decarbonisation and sustainability agenda whilst also locking in savings with, every site that they, do. And they have sites across Europe, at varying scale. But we work well together, which, means that actually then we can even look at the smaller sites and balance it off as part of a, bigger portfolio. And that's how we like to work in, in partnership with our clients. And how do you see Europe's clean energy map evolving over the next five years with, more local generation, more storage, more cross-border, trading, a mix of them? How is that gonna work out? Yeah I mean, there's more investment in grids, there's more interconnectors, some very ambitious interconnections being spoken about across Europe going a long way under the under sea and and oceans. So, those, kind of big projects are attractive to governments. Governments like the headline projects, don't they? So, so that, will be happening. But I would like to see a much more sensible approach to, permitting, and to fast tracking of new generation that adds value to grids by providing flexibility, where the demand is. We're seeing economic benefits from doing that and that, you know, the growth of data centers as well. And we're working on some very large projects, across Europe at the moment, and looking at very large projects. They will drive government to change these regimes because it will be job creation as well. So I think there'll be a gradual shift to decentralising the management of, grid infrastructure by enabling behind the meter supplies, and incentivizing, customers to do that and to build in and to procure flexibility services that they can improve the grid, but also by accelerating the projects that are most valuable. Hmm. That is a transition that, we need to see. But ultimately it's obviously gonna be solar and BESS that is at the forefront of what happens over the next five years or so, but then the next step will be to make these supplies island and to turn them into, microgrids. We'll start to see a lot more of that and a lot more of large microgrids as well as the large data center suppliers look to, deploy more intelligent demand management across their sites. Yeah, talk to me a bit about that because that's something that I remember positing as a possibility back between kind of 2006 and 2008 when I was involved in the design and build out of a data center in Ireland. The whole idea that data centers could respond to demand response programs because they've got generation on site, they've got battery backup on site, and they are big consumers, so they could moderate their demand from the grid without changing the amount of energy they're using. Just change where they're taking it from in response to demand signals or curtailment signals from from the grid operator. Talk to me a little bit about that. Are you seeing that anywhere or, I mean it did Exactly. Data centers are currently being portrayed as the boogeyman, the bad guy who's going to come in and require enormous amounts of electricity. And AI is also being, thrown into that picture there. I have my own opinions on that. I don't think the demand from AI is going to be nearly as large as people are forecasting, just because we're seeing massive improvements in AI technologies and their necessity for large amounts of electricity. But that's a whole other conversation. So no talk to me a little bit about data centers and your thinking on that, whether they're, they are that boogeyman that everyone fears they are. Yeah. And, on the first they're, definitely wanting to plan and, build their, processing sites in a way that they can be linked together. And, they can, distribute their processing load in response to energy prices as, as well as threats of resilience of the grid or, whatever. But in general, we know that data centers are already a, a significant path of global electricity demand. It's around 2%. The IEA I think forecast that it, will more than double over the next five years and, that will be driven by AI. And we also know that as they plan for these centers, they are already championing alternative and renewable energy, resources. But the problem is that it's taking so long for these things to get built and to come online because of all the planning and permitting and that there are but actually that, increase in demand that AI will generate, is in my view, it needs to be set against the projection of increases in demand in other sectors as well. So, we've got electrification happening in sectors like automotive in transport across most manufacturing sectors. We've also got this boom in air conditioning adoption of air con, and we've got electrified heat as well. So, you know, you put those things together, they're actually likely to completely dwarf the needs of AI over the next few years. And, and what's probably more interesting is how the adoption of AI could deliver some savings to overall electricity usage in these sectors. There could actually be a net positive for the energy transition. You look at traditional manufacturing materials and mineral manufacturing and things like glass and steel and copper, the inefficiency of the energy consumption there is famously huge. You know, I've read that as much as 40% is wasted. So applying AI to those processes could deliver really big savings. And I, I, I think it's. It's important to watch the reduction in consumption across traditional sectors adopting AI as it will be to monitor the consumption needs of AI itself because I, it could, well at least net up, if not be better. Sure, sure. For anyone who's listening who might be running a large facility or data center, what's the first practical step, to start the journey towards something like solar PPAs. Firstly, understanding your own consumption in detail and being able to map that out and project it, that's how you build the business case. That's pretty much all, the data that we need along with the tariffs to model it. And from there, you, you'll be able to know what kind of savings that you, you can lock in pretty quickly. But I think understanding what your priorities are as a buyer. And being really clear on that. What principles are you, going to have as a buyer? Are you just gonna look for the cheapest? Are you gonna look for the biggest name? These kind of aspects become important. What is actually going to valuable to you as a business? For the larger energy intensive companies that we work with, the durability of that relationship, the longevity of that relationship, the predictability of it over the course of 20 years is really important. You know, we work with water utilities for example as well. They're probably not going to disappear anytime soon, and even if they did, it would be into the government. They need to know that they've, got a supplier that is going to tick those boxes of reliability, of experience, of getting the project right, of not getting into trouble with things that they've not done before. And being able to stick to, timeframes and to solve problems. So I think for anyone considering PPAs, understanding what your priorities are as a, consumer, and being super clear on that upfront is really important. And, and people might not realise, but water utilities are massive users of electricity, right? It's actually their number one bill. And unusually in, the UK for instance, most of them don't qualify for any energy intensive industry subsidies. So they get hit with the highest charges as well. So you've got this perverse scenario. Obviously the bills are paid ultimately by consumers and the water bills are paid by consumers. So actually the consumers end up paying for, these huge non-commodity costs that they have. So yeah, we can, provide great savings for them, but most important for a water utility is that reliability of the relationship with their suppliers. And on a personal note, what keeps you optimistic about Europe's clean energy future? It's the pace of this adoption, is really exciting. It's a fantastic time to be in the sector despite the political doom and gloom that we have and despite the influence of, Trump and some of his, fossil fuel agenda is, is really biting and is influencing governments, but what we're proof of and what we can see happening in the industry is that commercially it continues to succeed. Even in the US it continues to, succeed. There was a Yale environment study that showed that more Americans now work in renewables than actually work in the service industries cashiers or servers. which is a, huge shift in the US economy. So it's part of the fabric of, their e economic makeup now. And it is an immovable part of that, and it's the same in Europe. And I think that's fantastic. It's the fact that it makes such great economic sense, and the fact that it, does so much good is really encouraging. I, I, I think it's a, it's a great time to be in the sector. Super. So if on that note, if you could have any person or character alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for clean energy and solar in particular, who would it be and why? That's a, great, great question, isn't it? And. I think you to be pragmatic about it, you look at who is having the most influence right now on, governments around the world and, the biggest influencer in the world is, not Mr. Beast. It's not Christiano Ronaldo, and unfortunately it's Donald Trump. Businesses and world leaders are falling over themselves to ingratiate themselves to the, the leader of the most powerful country on the planet. And he he's a climate change denier, and he has a fossil fuel agenda. Hmm. so I think an epiphany of Donald Trump, A rare moment of clear thinking and good sense whereby he ignores his lobbyists and cronies and instead listens to science and determines that he needs to do something about climate change. That would be the best thing. That would be the thing right now. I think that could have the biggest impact. Hoping for miracles. Yeah, we can but dream. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Rob, is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? Yeah, good. Good question. I think as a, champion of solar, perhaps the, the only other thing that I would highlight is, is the thing that it often gets criticised for, is the impact on, local, environment and the visual aspect of, solar. But in, there are many, many myths and I think it's really important that people understand that no solar park gets built without bearing in mind the impact on biodiversity and doing something about that. And, parks get built now with a minimum, biodiversity, net gain criteria. So they actually improve the environments that they're in, and we're seeing much more of that much more agri PV as well, where actually we're able to, have a dual purpose land and have cattle. And sheep, we've got parks with sheep shading under the solar panels. So I do think that it's, something that often gets leveled at the solar industry. A lot is being done about it. And whilst you can't do a great deal about the visual aspects, it is having a a genuinely positive impact on, on local environments too. Rob, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Sure, absolutely. So the website is alight hyphen energy dot com and I'm myself also on LinkedIn. So, do feel free to reach out with me there. Super. Rob, that's been fantastic, Thanks a million, for coming on the podcast today. Pleasure. Thank you very much, Tom. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.