Helen Neal: 0:00

We wanna show a company in its best possible light. We wanna sell products, we wanna sell services. But of course, we also know that when it comes to sustainability, if you approach the topic of sustainability in the same way that an organisation has always traditionally communicated, that is the moment where you are going to get unstuck and you're going to start to get into the territory of unintentional greenwashing.

Tom Raftery: 0:25

That's the uncomfortable line many companies are now walking, say too much, and you risk greenwashing, say nothing and you lose trust. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is Climate Confident Stories and Strategies that Cut Emissions episode 278, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. My guest today is Helen Neal, founder of HN Communications, a sustainability communications agency working with corporates and NGOs. In today's episode, we get into why climate claims now need the discipline of financial reporting, why green hushing is not a safe escape route, and how regulation AI, supply chain data and board accountability are changing what companies can credibly say. So I started by asking Helen what first pushed her into building a business around sustainability communication.

Helen Neal: 1:27

I come from a background in government relations actually, so I was never, I never set out on my career to be a sustainability expert. And indeed, 25 years ago, the topic of sustainability on the agenda of boardrooms was just simply not there. So my background is in politics, government, regulation, and I worked for some global corporates. So Virgin Atlantic. I then worked for Nissan. And my role really for both of those companies was to work on the regulatory environment, the government environments. And as you can imagine, for both an airline and a car company, the issue to do with carbon was a real big one. And so I actually found myself getting dragged more and more into this kind of sustainability world around 15 years ago. And it wasn't until about 10 years ago that I decided to leave the corporate world and set up this agency. I could see that there was a real challenge, particularly for big companies to communicate on this topic in a way that was both honest and effective all at the same time. And I think, it is fair to say there are still some challenges today, but that's really part of the problem. We are, are looking to solve as a, as a company.

Tom Raftery: 2:44

And working in parliament aviation, automotive, corporate affairs, what did those worlds teach you about how companies communicate under pressure?

Helen Neal: 2:55

I've seen it done really well and I've seen it done really badly. And I think, so often the best way to deal with any of these kind of crises type situations is to come out on the front foot and be brutally honest. And whilst that sounds like very obvious advice, it's surprising how difficult I think, particularly corporates still find that to do.

Tom Raftery: 3:20

And why do you think sustainability communication, why has it become so much harder in the last couple of years?

Helen Neal: 3:29

I mean, I think it's always been difficult but I think what we've seen is an increase in this difficulty because I think the topic has come, to a head a little bit. I think one of the big challenges with this topic is perhaps a structural one that often businesses have within their business, but don't realise that it's there. So, the way in which companies often communicate from a PR perspective, from a consumer perspective, from a marketing perspective, is always to put the company's best foot forward. We wanna show a company in its best possible light. We wanna sell products, we wanna sell services. But of course, we also know that when it comes to sustainability, if you approach the topic of sustainability in the same way that an organisation has always traditionally communicated, that is the moment where you are going to get unstuck and you're going to start to get into the territory of unintentional greenwashing. And I've seen this happen time and time again with businesses because I don't believe that the vast majority of businesses, any of them want to set out and intentionally mislead their consumers, mislead their investors and greenwash, I really don't. But there are some structural problems within a, a business that is inherently tripping them up because they are intending to communicate in a very traditional way. And actually the way you communicate on sustainability is very different. And I think it is a completely different discipline. And so I think that's where we see a lot of challenges within this space. And I think that's why a lot of businesses get, get stuck here.

Tom Raftery: 5:09

Okay, so address some of those problems that you talked about. What are they and how is sustainability communication different from other forms of communication that companies might have?

Helen Neal: 5:20

I always say that one of the first ways to think about sustainability and how you communicate it is to think of it in the same way that you would communicate your financial data. And what I mean by that is it requires the same level of rigour and third party verification and defensiveness within the language that you are using. That it needs to be clear, it needs to be rigorous just in the same way that you would, you would create a financial report. So that is the first step. You need to think about it in the same way as you would treat your financial data and your, reports to your board and your investor. But that's also not enough on its own. We also need to combine that creativity and that flare and that interest because if you just do that alone, sustainability becomes a very boring dry topic. We've all seen the reports that get published by businesses. You know, sustainability report that gets put on the shelf. You have to delve into finding it on the website and nobody reads it. And what I want to do is also help businesses feel more confident to take that rigorous data and information and actually then still be able to feel confident that you can communicate that and tell those important stories and communicate your ambition and the work that you are doing around sustainability, because that is equally important. And in actual fact, staying silent on this, which is something we have also seen on for businesses in the past couple of years, this concept of green hushing is also very dangerous for businesses to embark on. The idea of just simply thinking that you can stay safe by saying nothing is actually not true either. It's really important that consumers feel like they understand that they know what an organisation is doing when it comes to their sustainability work too. So it is important that you communicate, it is important you communicate with that financial style rigour, but also we want to do this in a way that is inspiring and engaging for consumers as well. So, and it can be both. So that, that's one of the things that I tend to, to get on my soapbox about and argue with. But it is possible.

Tom Raftery: 7:34

And is regulation becoming stricter around greenwashing? Is that a reason why companies are starting to green hush, or is it more the likes of Trump's war on ESG? Or is it all of the above or something else entirely or a combination?

Helen Neal: 7:53

With, so often with all of this stuff, it's a combination of many factors. I think you touched on the Trump point. We can't deny that I think in the past, sort of two years since he came to power, we've seen a massive shift in terms of how companies feel safe and comfortable to communicate on sustainability. But what I would say on that point is I can't help but feel that in a way he's almost done a little bit of a favour. Which I'm sure is not his intention, but I, let me, let me explain why I think this is the case. I think up until that point businesses were too fixated and actually the, the NGO world I think is also potentially in part on this too, that communicating on sustainability had been a kind of a point of saying, it's just the right thing to do. We should do this because it's right for our children and our children's children, and we want to leave the world in a, in a better way than than how we came into it. All of those things are true. And I think that, a willingness for a business to have those views is absolutely fine, but we also know that that was only around 20%, 30% maximum of businesses that actually really held that view. We know the vast majority of businesses, that kind of message didn't hold up. You can't have conversations about sustainability around a board table and talk about it with altruism. It has to make good business sense. It has to work on the balance sheet. It has to look at things in terms of managing of your supply chain. So I think what has shifted is that sustainability has got serious, it has become a topic of a business motivation and a business factor, rather than it being perhaps something that was perceived as soft and wooly. I think what has happened is the conversation and the language around sustainability is now about long-term business resilience, supply chain resilience, long-term legacy, managing the sovereignty of your energy supply. These sorts of things I think have become safe spaces for businesses to talk about sustainability in that way. Yet still a lot of that motivation and that altruism that is equally important is still there, but it's perhaps not the piece that is vocal and it is certainly not the piece that actually turns the dial within a boardroom

Tom Raftery: 10:17

I, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that because my other podcast is called Resilient Supply Chain, so

Helen Neal: 10:23

Well, there we go

Tom Raftery: 10:23

Very timely.

Helen Neal: 10:24

Ticking of two boxes there. But you also, you also mentioned about regulation, and I think that's an important one. And obviously my background is in that kind of more government regulatory space up until starting the business. And, yes, there are more regulations coming online. There are different spots globally that have more regulation driving them than others. But I think what is happening is even those areas of regulation, and let's take EU for example, there has been a number of EU regulations that have come into play. And there's another one coming into play in September which is the consumer I can't, it's called ECGT. I can never remember all these EU acronyms. But this is about consumer trust essentially in terms of the language and communication that's being used. So this is coming in in September, but there are others, people will know about CSRD and, and things that impact business. And even if you are a business that isn't based in Europe, if you have any form of operations in Europe, you still get caught by some of these regulations. When I worked in corporate and there were, let's say, some very well known business leaders who would often say to me, Helen, whatever we do, we need to ensure that we reduce regulation. We don't want regulation here. We need to minimise it as much as possible. So I spend a lot of time arguing and, and, and pushing for a reduction in regulation. And don't get me wrong, I'm a small business owner and so there are lots of things around regulation that are not right. However, I do think when it comes to sustainability, regulation is potentially something that can support business because up to this point there is a lot of confusion around what can be said, how should we say things and not getting caught up in this potential kind of unintentional greenwashing I spoke about. So I think what a lot of this regulation is actually there to do is to help businesses have much more of a level playing field and have a bit more clarity over what can be done and what can't be done. So I do actually think that even though this regulation is coming into force, it will help businesses gain a little bit more clarity. But to your point, yes, that is increasing as well. So I think businesses have got this perfect storm of this reevaluation of what sustainability means to them and how it is a factor of discussion in terms of business safety, business growth, and also this kind of growing regulatory piece around what you can and can't say. And of course, consumers are deeply savvy about this topic now, far more than they were even five years ago. So there's a level of mistrust and expectation from the consumer that the, businesses also need to address. So you've got these three things coming together in a, bit of a perfect storm that is enabling businesses to, focus on this a little bit more than perhaps they did.

Tom Raftery: 13:21

And there's also the topics of financed emissions and insurance enabled emissions as well. So those are two other topics that the boards are starting to become aware of now, where your cost of insurance and your cost of capital start to increase if you don't have proper access to primary data as opposed to the likes of industry averages. Yeah. I'm curious, maybe, maybe this is a, a silly question, but what's the most common type of greenwashing you see today that isn't actually intentional?

Helen Neal: 13:55

I think it's just through some of the well-meaning statements. It, and it can be anything from saying, you know, we will be, net zero by 2050. But yet when you then look into that organisation, there isn't a clear roadmap as to how they're going to get there. You don't see what they have done to date in order to even get to the point that they're at and what that looks like going forward. So it's just that lack of detail. I have no doubt that perhaps they do have a very clear, goal to be net zero by 2050, but without that backing of data to, clarify that and to show the intention, it's quite hard to then believe it. So I think it's these great statements like that, that I often see and when I do see them, it does make me sort of feel like, hmm, is the data and evidence there to back it up? And if it's not obvious to me, particularly on a, on a marketing campaign, if you can't see it quite clearly quite quickly, then that's usually a bit of a red flag for me.

Tom Raftery: 15:22

And I'm curious then, is there any kind of software out there that could help companies avoid these kind of, what's the word I'm making for potholes in the road? Mistakes that they could be making?

Helen Neal: 15:36

I have a lot of sympathy for business because I, as I said at the start, I really don't think businesses intend to greenwash at all. But I think there's a big lack of knowledge around what they can and can't say. I think there's a big disconnect between the various departments internally within a business, whether it's your sustainability team, your comms team, your legal team, quite often not working together in order to sense check a lot of this information. But yes, there are, and I think there are more tools coming online and, and, and we have been building our own I guess, lots of of businesses looking at AI now as a tool in which to help within this space. And, and our tool called Zena, what it does essentially is it will look at sustainability reports, websites, or even if you are just drafting something yourself, you can put that information into the system and it will check against a range of global regulations to see whether that language fits with the regulatory requirements. And if it doesn't, it will flag those areas. But it will also give you some coaching around the kind of things that you will need to embed into that piece of information in order to help increase your confidence and safety within that space. Of course, nothing is a hundred percent safe, we know that, but it can at least give users a bit of a guidance and a, a sense check. And even if we can get people 80% there, and I think particularly with that coaching piece of challenging back to the human, the AI is almost prompting the human to start thinking about what other data evidence might you need. And if you realise that you've got gaps in that space and you don't have that data, that also tells you something as well. And so I think it's quite helpful tool to help you know, are you on the right track? Do you have everything in terms of that evidence and data backed up? Just to help improve how you need to package this information and avoid those potential regulatory risks, which some, by the way, carry fines. So it is important from a financial perspective as well as reputational.

Tom Raftery: 17:43

Okay. I'm just curious about the likes of the rise of generative AI, as you mentioned, AI there, has that made sustainability communications better or dramatically more dangerous given people are potentially broadcasting hallucinations with a high degree of confidence?

Helen Neal: 18:00

Mm. I mean, I think it does both. Actually I mean, I, I hate seeing those kind of telltale signs of like, the m dashes and stuff like that within, within language. You can just spot it a mile off. And I think, I think all of us can. We know when that language is, inauthentic or has been driven by AI. I think for businesses, what I'm seeing at the moment is they're using AI for drafting and testing. But I think that potentially, I think with things like sustainability, because the way in which you communicate does carry a level of risk, it is really important that a human is at the forefront of creating that language and that information and that ownership around that information. And I think that's super important, particularly even from a kind of, auditing and validation point of view. That said, there is space for AI and there is a huge interest in terms of sustainability tools around AI, certainly around things like reporting and housing of that data, calculating that data and packaging all of that up and understanding the patterns and what's happening within a business. I think that's super helpful because it is something that is a huge piece of work for, for businesses and teams to audit and manage. So there is a place for AI and likewise, when we've got all of that data and that information that first drafting of telling that information and that story and building those reports and that language to boards and consumers, that's also an important kind of pre-publication test to make sure that you've got everything in the right place. But where the human comes back in is at the end of that process to then sense, check, verify, make sure that what it is saying is actually accurate, and that putting that kind of human oversight on everything, I think is never gonna go away, in my opinion. Certainly not for the foreseeable future. So the, it is both and I think it does carry risk. I think the risk comes is where you don't have that human oversight in, at the end or indeed have the human at the very beginning of the process in terms of the input in, the bit in the middle where I think AI can lend a huge amount of support to humans, in particularly in sustainability. But it is very important that the human is at the start and at the finish of that process, almost like a bit of a sandwich

Tom Raftery: 20:28

Okay. And you've worked with, lots of companies, like you mentioned, NI Nissan and Ashi, the beer company, and Bosch and Responsible Steel across multiple different sectors. What would you say separates companies that separates companies sustainability credibly from companies that struggle badly with it?

Helen Neal: 20:48

I think it all starts with the CEO and the board. And I think often when you don't have the buy-in from that senior leadership from the get go, then that's where I start to see things not work as they should be. I'm always of the view, with our work and the work that we do, we don't go into businesses to try and convince the board and CEO that they need to do something on sustainability. That is not, it is a fruitless task. The business and the board and the CEO have to buy into it and it has to be more than just language. And that's coming from a comms person, it must be around action. So, where I've seen it work really, really well is where the CEO is bought in, but the board are bought in as well. And that sustainability isn't just a, a department that sits in the side in a back room and occasionally comes in for a board meeting. But actually sustainability as a discipline transcends every single part of a company's department. And not only that, sustainability is a KPI that sits within every single department, whether it's hr, finance, marketing, logistics, all of them have an accountability within their function for sustainability rather than it being a separate function. That's where I see it work really well. And I guess the final thing on that, which is an even next level piece, is where not only is it a KPI, but then suddenly sustainability also starts to become an accountability tool for board bonuses as well. So, money talks at the end of the day, and I think sometimes when you, position your KPIs around sustainability to also the, the recognition and reward, suddenly you really do start to see a change in a level of engagement. But that has to come from the top, that has to come from leadership. That's where I really see meaningful sustainable change happen within an organisation. And by the way, I often see that when you have all of that, there's greater innovation. There is greater opportunity for development of new business models and new opportunities and greater room for creativity as well around marketing and communicating with consumers. Rather than seeing sustainability as a negative tool that is going to cost your business more, this actually then becomes a catalyst for change that can actually generate long-term business income, manage resilience and all of those good things that, I'm sure you talk about on your Supply Chain resilience podcast as well.

Tom Raftery: 23:25

Sure, sure. I'm delighted to hear you say that because I could show you PowerPoint decks from keynotes that I was giving in the mid 2010s where I was saying that one of the, one of, one of several bullet points on the deck was, and it was always the last one, that one of the most powerful tools you can have for helping your company on this decarbonisation project is aligning executives KPIs with emissions reduction targets. And you always got a bit of a in the room when I'd say that, but it's absolutely true. It's, I mean, it goes without saying. It should go without saying, but I'm glad we said it. And you, you've worked on communications around ev transitions, steel decarbonisation, corporate climate leadership. where are companies genuinely making progress and where are they still mostly performing progress?

Helen Neal: 24:21

I think we've seen there's been a lot of progress in those kind of scope one and scope two, those, those areas that businesses can directly control. I think we have seen shifts within that space. I think energy and renewable energy has been a, very successful area for a lot of businesses in terms of shifting to using renewable energy. That's been a really positive change and I've seen that really accelerate in the past sort of 10 years. So, those are definitely areas that I think we've seen movement on. I think where, where it still remains a challenge is around that supply chain piece. And I, you will know this really well. It's that difficulty of not having direct ownership. It's the complexity that comes with supply chain. And of course supply chain isn't just about carbon reduction. We've seen the concept of sustainability as a whole evolve. You now, when businesses look at these topics around sustainability, carbon is just one small element of it. It's still huge, but it's one small element. There are other things like water conservation, land conservation, nature, biodiversity, human rights, all of these other things, I think particularly within the supply chain piece, build a whole new level of, complexity for businesses. And because it's something that is more challenging for them to directly control, we see a much slower progress in this space. And I think that's a real, real challenge for businesses about how they navigate that in the coming years because it is very much on the agenda. But how you deal with that, I think is, is, is still very challenging and we haven't seen a huge amount of progress within that space.

Tom Raftery: 26:02

Helen, do you think we're moving towards a future where every sustainability claim will need evidence attached to it? Like a, almost like a scientific citation, or perhaps as you mentioned earlier, with the absolute rigour that's currently mandated for financial reporting?

Helen Neal: 26:19

I think at the moment we are getting to a point where as I think there will be a certain level of rigour around that kind of financial reporting that I, I describe, I do think that there are regulations now or that are coming into force, especially in Europe, that will require that same level as rigour of rigour compared to your financial data. I guess the question is, and it's still an unknown one, is how you tell that story and be consistent across your business. So for example, if you have a marketing campaign and you are genuinely talking around, conservation, biodiversity, or getting to net zero, I think it's really important that businesses still feel they can be able to do that. But then the question becomes, put that out there. But how do you make sure that you can tell that simple story still, but provide that same level of, rigour as well. I have seen one business do it quite well actually, where they've had a, a, a product built using renewable energy. It's the, it is talked about that on the actual product itself, and then you can scan a QR code that then will take you to the company's website and provide you with all of that data and clarification information should you wish to read it. Now the likelihood is that most consumers are never going to want to see it, but the important piece is that it is there and that it has been quantified and that there is that level of, trust and rigour that sits behind it. So I think we may get to a point where as long as that information is housed, it's easy for the consumer to use. Then that we don't have to give, reams and reams of data every time we make a, a sentence or a statement because it's just not feasible. So it will be interesting to see how some of this regulation hasn't come into effect yet. Some of it will in September, as I mentioned. It'll be interesting to see how that is, managed and there has to be a level of kind of reasonable approach to this. So I wonder whether something like that will be, the thing that companies need to start thinking about a bit more.

Tom Raftery: 28:25

My own car is a Kia EV3 and it has a QR code on the dashboard, which to your point, you scan it and it brings you to all the information about the interior of the car and how it was made from recycled bits and pieces and so on, so on and so on. So it's, it, yeah, it's, it's great to see those kind of things happen and it's gonna be, some of those things are gonna be mandated now through things like the Digital Product Passport legislation, which is coming in as well. That's not for the interiors of cars, but it's more to do with things like the batteries in the cars.

Helen Neal: 28:57

Yeah, exactly. So I think this is where we are potentially moving to. And I also think, and this is again, where AI can really play a real positive force within the sustainability sort of progress map, if you like. There was another product, it was Peroni actually, who put the QR code on their beer bottle, and you could actually, if you scan it, that individual, you could scan that and you would be able to see the, journey that the product went on throughout its whole supply chain. So this would go from the farmer in the field in terms of the hops and the barley that it, it used all the way through to, the bottling, putting the beer in the bottle, the distance. It then travelled to the actual, the, the place You'll be able to see, you are able to see that whole journey. So I think more and more of that type of thing will come into play. But interestingly with Peroni, there was another beer, and I forget the name of it now, but I think it was an Australian one. They did it even better in my opinion, because what they did from a storytelling point of view, they had the journey, the kind of, supply chain journey. But what they also had was the different individuals and the, and the companies or the touch points, and you had human stories that sat alongside the actual physical journey as well. And I think, going back to my point earlier, we want sustainability to be something that continues to inspire and engage. We don't want it just to be about another kind of financial reporting process because the stories in this matter and because we need to tell these stories and in order to inspire and continue to sort of drive change as well. So, and actually that human story did really, really well. It really engaged consumers in a way that the other one that I mentioned that just showed the different places didn't, because the human story triggered much more interest from a consumer point of view.

Tom Raftery: 30:53

Sure, sure, sure. Of course. And let's say five years from now, what do you think corporate sustainability communication will look like, particularly if regulation keeps tightening?

Helen Neal: 31:06

I think it's gonna look like a more kind of rigorous place overall. I think sustainability teams and comms teams will be, I hope, a bit more educated. And that's not to say that these guys are super intelligent, right? And I, it's a privilege for me to work with them. But they come at this topic from two very different skill sets. So my hope is that those departments work more collaboratively and closely together because I think that provides an element of safety for them both. I would love to see them starting to use more tools within AI to support them, but they are very much a support rather than a a mechanism for full output. But I do think that the language is gonna get a little bit tighter. I think we're gonna see less sweeping statements from businesses and companies. That's probably a good thing. But what I do hope is that the, tightening of regulation doesn't reduce companies down to a point where they simply don't talk about this topic at all anymore. Because I think that is also a big risk. So we need to help companies feel confident about talking about sustainability, but doing so in a way that is also responsible as well. And I think, my mission very much is about helping companies to build their confidence in talking about sustainability in a best practise way, that doesn't greenwash, but also inspires and engages people at the same time. Because let's, let's be honest, there's a lot of investment that goes into sustainability within companies. Whether, whether they're talking about it openly or not quietly, most businesses, I would say around up to 80%, have not stopped their ambition and not stopped their investment around sustainability in the past couple of years. They have changed their language about how they communicate on it, but the investments that are still going on and the changes that they're still making, they know are long-term resilience impacts and change. So this is still happening and therefore, it is important that, companies continue to talk about this openly because it's a big differentiator and driver for change within their companies as well. Or it can be.

Tom Raftery: 33:16

And Helen, what do you think corporate sustainability communication is going to look like in a few years from now, particularly if regulation keeps tightening?

Helen Neal: 33:24

I mean, I think we're gonna see businesses being a little bit more rigorous in terms of how they communicate. I think that they will take on board this approach around having more data, to back up the statements they're making. I think they probably will be a little bit more cautious around what they can say. But I think I would like to very much encourage businesses to feel confident that they can communicate on this topic and do so through a lens of, the rigour and the accountability that is needed, but also still be able to talk about this in a engaging and inspiring way. I would love to see, more departments like the sustainability team, the comms team, the marketing team collaboratively working together. I think some of these regulatory changes are gonna require them to work more together with their legal teams as well. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think actually that's gonna really help them to avoid some of the pitfalls that I think many of them have been tripping up with that has either stopped them from communicating about sustainability at all or at some points putting themselves unintentionally at risk of greenwashing. So I think that coming together of some of these teams will be really important. I think regulation will drive up a certain level of, rigour and probably best practise, as a hope. I do think AI tools will be able to support in terms of that journey, like I said, in terms of that kind of middle part of making sure that that kind of sense checking has happened. But I do hope that businesses also continue to see sustainability as a real driver and differentiator and ability of being able to communicate and engage your consumers and your investors too, and do so in a way that is inspiring and it's not just, boring data sets of from the financial world. You know, we still want this topic to be something that inspires and moves people because it is a real business differentiator.

Tom Raftery: 35:24

And a left field question for you Helen, if if you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for rigorous sustainability communications, who would it be and why?

Helen Neal: 35:42

Oh, that is a really good question. It's really hard to kind of pick someone and I guess, thinking about it, and it, it might sound a little bit trite, but I'd probably ask one of my sons because, you know, they, they're, they're only 10, 10 and 11, but they are so engaged in this topic. It is something that they feel deeply about, not just because of my work, but I know that it's an important thing for all of them at, at school. And I think we have a tendency as adults to, bypass that as not being important. But it is important, I think that younger generations, 20, even the 20 and 30 year olds, there's so much evidence there to suggest that this topic is deeply important to many of them, far more than older generations. And that gives me purpose for hope because those individuals very soon are going to be the ones around those board tables. They are going to be the CEOs, the head of HRs, the head of supply chain, and actually them buying into it, like I mentioned at the start, those companies that make real meaningful change are the ones that believe in this at their core, they see it as, yes, the altruism point that I mentioned, it is important. and bringing that to the table, but it also needs to make good business sense as well. I think you need both. I think for me, it's the young person that has the ability to, challenge us and our old mindsets that can drive this topic forward, in a way that, time is running out for some of us to be able to potentially do that. And they're the ones that are gonna have to live with it. So I think some, someone like my son, I would hand it over to them to be able to champion.'cause I think they'll do a better job than us.

Tom Raftery: 37:37

Great. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now Helen, is there any question that I did not ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it is important for people to think about?

Helen Neal: 37:49

Only to say, I think, you know, let's be honest where we are today, we're in a really tough environment and I think, you know, geopolitically, there are lots of things happening that are confusing, difficult, uncertain. And I think particularly for business, under a lot of pressure, a lot of uncertainty, I think it's very easy to lose sight of perhaps some of these big picture elements like sustainability. It is a longer term challenge and issue that requires constant focus over the long term. Businesses traditionally, their cycle is kind of quarterly and sometimes annually. And so I think it doesn't lend itself so well to that kind of topic. So I guess what I would say is, despite all of these challenges, I'm genuinely hopeful and positive actually in a way that I haven't been probably for a few years, that despite all of these complexities, actually there is a real resilience within the sustainability world, and within business that, take on board sustainability to actually leapfrog and get ahead in this moment of, of uncertainty because they are staying the course, they're continuing to invest, they're continuing to level up in their supply chains and their business resilience. And I think that whilst they don't see it potentially yet as tangible outputs,

Tom Raftery: 39:19

Mm-hmm.

Helen Neal: 39:20

I think in two to three years time and five years time, they will realise that the decisions and the, and the investments that they made now have exponentially benefited them in the future that I think we're going into. So I think sometimes it's just about holding the course in times of difficulty.

Tom Raftery: 39:37

Helen, if people would like to know more about yourself, or any of the things we talked about in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?,

Helen Neal: 39:44

So you can find me on helen neal.org. You can find lots, about me there and also on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn and also on our website. So www dot hn comms.co.uk. And also if you're interested in, checking your own sustainability language and making sure that it is compliant and also best practise, you can also check out and apply to look at Zena, which is www.ZenaReview.com. And we are opening that up to some businesses to start checking their own communications, this month.

Tom Raftery: 40:20

Fantastic. Fantastic. Helen, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.,

Helen Neal: 40:25

Thank you so much for having me, Tom. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.